From Surviving to Thriving: How the Neurosequential Model Informs Trauma-Responsive Parenting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34GclQU-u24

Matt Darrah (00:01)

and welcome to All Things Foster, a place for coffee, connection, and community. Guys, I am...

very honored to have Michelle on with us today and what we're going to get to her in just a second. But before we do, this episode of All Things Foster is brought to you by West Texas Wellness Center in Amarillo, where your health and well-being are their priority. Led by Dr. Zach Parker and his experienced team, West Texas Wellness Center offers natural, drug-free chiropractic care designed to help you live with less pain,

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And so I say this most every week, Dr. Parker ⁓ is a big supporter of our organization. And Nikki and I have used him for various things over the years. so if you're, if you need some help, check out Dr. Parker. He's a great guy and a great chiropractor. So welcome Michelle Maikoetter to our podcast. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on today.

Michelle L Maikoetter (02:00)

Thank you. I've been looking forward to it ever since we met a couple of weeks ago, so thanks for having me.

Matt Darrah (02:04)

Yeah, saw ⁓ when they put that out that they were going to do that meeting and I saw you and I looked you up a little bit and looked at your credentials and I was like, I need to hear that. And so it was, it was really good. Kind of hard to condense everything down into like 20 minutes. But it's always good. ⁓ So today we're going to talk about the neuro sequential model and just the brain, kind of how it

Michelle L Maikoetter (02:21)

Yes, yes it is very much.

Matt Darrah (02:34)

how it works, how it develops. ⁓ so, ⁓ Michelle, why don't you start, just give us a little bit of your background, kind of what your experience is and stuff like that.

Michelle L Maikoetter (02:46)

Okay.

So I started out in Wilderness program. I have a bachelor's in psychology and you can't do a whole lot with just a bachelor's when you first get out of school and don't have any experience. So I started out with long-term wilderness counseling, which we don't even do anymore. But that was my first entry into it. And then I got my master's and became a licensed professional counselor and a nationally certified counselor. And most of my work has been in residential settings. With my most recent being at Cal Farleys's Boys Ranch outside of Amarillo for 18

Matt Darrah (02:53)

Right.

with my most recent being at Cal

Wow.

Michelle L Maikoetter (03:17)

years, but I also did juvenile probation. I did after

school programming with the Boys and Girls Club of America. I did domestic violence and sexual assault outreach programs. But residential has always kind of been my heart because you get to build a community to really try to help those kids. And so that's where I learned about Dr. Perry's model was at Cal Farley's. And we went through formal training starting back in 2010. And then it took us two years to become a site that was certified.

Matt Darrah (03:24)

domestic violence and sexual assault outreach programs. But residential is always kind of in my heart because you get to build a community to really try to help these kids. And so that's where I learned about Dr. Perry's model, to help Barley's. And we went through formal training.

in 2010 and then it took us two years to become a site that was certified

Michelle L Maikoetter (03:47)

in his model and then he chose me as one of his first he used to call us fellows and back then it was called the Child Trauma Academy. It's now called the Neurosequential Network and we're known as mentors and then when he wrote his book with ⁓ Oprah called What Happened to You?; he got a little bit busier and so now I do some work for him to do training with individuals and organizations that want to learn more about his model

Matt Darrah (03:47)

in the world. And then he chose me as one of his first, used to call us fellows and back then it was called the Child Trauma Academy. It's now called the Neuro sequential network and we're known as mentors. And then when he wrote his book with Oprah called What Happened to You, he got a little bit busier now I do some work for him to do training with individuals and organizations that want to learn more about his

Yeah, that's so cool. I mean, we've talked about Dr. Perry on here quite a bit and his work is just so... I went through a book study on What happened to you? about a year ago and man, it's just good to try to understand... He tells a story about a...

Michelle L Maikoetter (04:28)

It is.

Matt Darrah (04:34)

young lady and I can't remember all the details, but she was in the hospital and they couldn't figure out why she was, I think she had diabetes and her insulin would spike periodically and they couldn't figure out why and then it turned out that every time an ambulance came that ⁓ she would hear the sirens and then that reflected back to some experiences that she'd had. moved her to a different

part of the hospital and the problem went away. mean, man, just wow. So yes, that's gotta be really cool working for him.

Michelle L Maikoetter (05:06)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, amazing.

Yes, it is. you know, when I first heard

about his work, when he was first coming out with it and formalizing it, you know, I was working with with at risk populations to challenging situations. And it was the first time I felt like, wow, this really makes sense. And, you know, and then once you learn it, you wish you would have known it, you know, all these years ago. And you think about different kids that you've worked with and just have a different appreciation for some of the challenges that you're seeing, not just not just with the kids, but within ourselves and with each other and why

Matt Darrah (05:21)

you know, I was working with at-risk populations to challenging situations.

Yeah,

Michelle L Maikoetter (05:43)

Sometimes things go off the rails and we don't really understand why.

Matt Darrah (05:48)

so what what what was the driving force to get into psychology in the first place?

Michelle L Maikoetter (05:53)

So it was really because I started out as a journalism major.

Matt Darrah (05:56)

Okay. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (05:57)

and I really like to write.

And ⁓ I came from a really small school, came from a small school in South Texas, and I didn't have much journalism experience. And so when I started writing for the school paper, my university's paper, and got edited, I didn't like being edited. And so as an 18, 19 year old who thought no one should have to edit me, was in a psychology class. And so that second year I changed my major to psychology just because I liked the professor. But I've always

Matt Darrah (06:00)

And ⁓ I came from a really small school. I came from a small school in South Texas. And I didn't have much journalism experience. And so when I started writing for the school paper, my university's paper, and got edited, I didn't like being edited. So as an 18, 19-year-old who thought no one should have to edit me, I was in a psychology class. And so that second year, I was changed by major to psychology because I liked the professor.

Michelle L Maikoetter (06:27)

just kind of wanted to help people and I'd been, you know, I worked in summer camps and, you know, did those kinds of things with younger kids. And so, and I had an interest in wilderness. I was doing a lot of hiking and mountain climbing at the time. And so with that bachelor's degree, that's how I got into wilderness programming. I did, at the time I didn't want to be in an office and I wanted to help adolescents. And so that's how I kind of got into that world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Darrah (06:50)

That's funny, like the professor. And then here you are, 20 years later.

Wow, that's cool. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my wife and our big Dave Ramsey folks, and I don't know if you know who he is, but, you know, he talks about the, you these people going and getting a hundred thousand dollar degree in left handed puppetry. So it's like, you know, so yeah, that's cool. So, so you have about 30,

Michelle L Maikoetter (06:57)

and actually using the degree, which most of my friends have a degree that they're not using it for anything related to it. Yeah.

Yes, exactly. ⁓

Matt Darrah (07:25)

30 years of experience working with with kiddos from a hard backgrounds, right? Yes, that's well, you know, I can't remember if I mentioned this or not but Mike Wilhelm was on the on the podcast a few weeks ago and so You know, it's it's the work that that goes on out there at boys ranches ⁓ It's just it's just really important

Michelle L Maikoetter (07:30)

Yes. Yeah. Crazy.

It is and Mike and his program was such a big piece of our implementation to become trauma informed and to create

just a holistic integrated approach which you don't typically see or have not typically seen that when I've seen other residential facilities. The spiritual development has kind of always been separated, has kind of always been independent of the rest of the programming and Mike was such an important piece for us to be able to create a therapeutic community. Yeah.

Matt Darrah (08:08)

Yeah, that's so cool.

So let's kind of start with

What is the neurosequential model? What does that mean for folks out there that don't have a clue?

Michelle L Maikoetter (08:26)

Yeah, so, neurosequential

is a word that Dr. Perry made up and it's to emphasize the sequential development the brain develops from the bottom to the top, from the inside out. And his model uses an upside down triangle heuristic to break the brain into four parts or functioning areas, which is overly simplistic and we realize that. But it's really to learn how the brain develops and then organizes based on our past experiences, especially our relational experiences, because we know the brain

Matt Darrah (08:29)

and it's to emphasize the sequential development of the brain.

inside out and his model uses an upside down triangle heuristic to break the brain into four parts or functioning areas which is overly simplistic and we realize that. But it's really to learn how the

and then organizes based on our past experiences, especially our relational experiences, because we know the

brain is historical organ, it learns, it creates memory based on our experiences, but specifically relational ones, because that's where we thrive or we don't within our relationships. And so it's looking at based on those relationships and experiences, how the brain has organized and how that might be impacting you now.

Michelle L Maikoetter (08:56)

is historical organ, it learns, ⁓ it creates memory based on our experiences but specifically relational ones because that's where we thrive or we don't within our relationships and so it's looking at based on those relationships and experiences how the brain has organized and then how that might be impacting you now.

Matt Darrah (09:15)

Sure. When I read, ⁓ I may be jumping, but when I read What happened to you?, if I remember correctly, you know, the brain is receiving something like six or 10 million bits of data every second. And we can't process all that. So then it maps back toward everything that happened up until that point.

Michelle L Maikoetter (09:39)

Right.

So it's taking in all the external information, it's taking in all the internal information

that it's getting, so sensory information, but then also, you know, being tired, being hungry, eating to go to bathroom, all those internal signals. And it filters all of that through past experiences because we don't have an infinite amount of memory. We don't have all the space. And so it's constantly trying to make shortcuts to make things match up, to experience, to say, this is what we do with this or this is how we respond to this. And so it's filtering it through all those previous experiences.

Matt Darrah (09:44)

that it's getting sensory information, but then also being tired, being hungry, eating to go to bathroom, all those internal signals. And it filters all of that through past experiences because we don't have an infinite amount of memory. We don't have all the space. And so it's constantly trying to make shortcuts to make things match up, to experience, to say this is what we do with this or this is how we respond to this. And so it's building it through all those previous experiences

Michelle L Maikoetter (10:10)

to try to make sense, to try to predict what's going to happen in order to keep us safe because we know the

Matt Darrah (10:10)

to try to make sense, to try to predict what's going to happen in order to keep us safe. ⁓

and the brain's constantly trying to keep us safe and figure things out and predicting what's gonna happen next is what helps us. Yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (10:14)

brain is constantly trying to keep us safe and figure things out and predicting what's going to happen next is what helps us stay alive. Yeah.

Matt Darrah (10:23)

and so when you talk about the neurosequential model being bottom up and inside out and everything maps back to something that happened in the past,

So working from the bottom up, we talk about ⁓ the basic systems. So you're talking like, OK, temperature regulation and breath and all that kind of stuff develops. Those types of things are the beginning. And then we develop outward from that. Right. Yeah, so those basic brain stem areas.

Michelle L Maikoetter (10:57)

Great.

Yeah, so those basic brain stem areas,

brain stem area, those functions for the brain stem area, those are almost completely developed in utero. So anything that happens in utero impacts that brain stem, which is your foundation for the rest of the brain to be organized. And so we know that anything that occurs in utero that might disorganize that. So it might be domestic violence, it might be drugs and alcohol, it might be homelessness and chaos, those kind of things can sometimes disorganize those functions.

Matt Darrah (11:00)

brainstem area, those functions for the brainstem area, those are almost completely developed in utero. anything that happens in utero impacts that brainstem. Which is kind of your foundation for the rest of the brain to be organized. And so we know that anything that occurs in utero that might disorganize that, so it might be domestic violence, might be drugs and alcohol.

and chaos, those kind of things, can sometimes disorganize those functions

Michelle L Maikoetter (11:27)

and that's your foundational base for later relational experiences, for controlling impulses, for thought processes and those kind of things. And so we look at all of that, especially zero to three. So in the order of three years old is when the brain is most in development for all those different areas. And so we know anything that occurs during that time has a disproportionate impact on how it organizes and functions.

Matt Darrah (11:27)

and that's your foundational base for later relational experiences, for controlling impulses, for thought processes and those kind of things. And so we look at all of that, especially zero to three. So in the year to three years old is when the brain is most in development for all those different areas. And so we know anything that occurs during that time has a disproportionate impact on how it organizes.

Michelle L Maikoetter (11:52)

And we used to think that it didn't matter what happened to you during that time because you didn't have a memory of it.

Matt Darrah (11:53)

We used to think that it didn't matter what happened to you during that time.

Michelle L Maikoetter (11:57)

but really memory and language is in the cortex, which is that final area of the brain to develop that doesn't fully develop to mid-20s, early 30s. And that's just one area of our brain, but we tend to think of our brain as only being the cortex instead of understanding all these other functions that are going on.

Matt Darrah (11:57)

But really, memory and language is in the cortex, which is that final area of the brain to develop that doesn't fully develop to mid-20s, early 30s. And that's just one area of our brain. But we tend to think of our brain as only being the cortex instead of understanding all these other functions that are going on.

Michelle L Maikoetter (12:14)

They're meant to interact together in a coordinated way.

Matt Darrah (12:14)

they're meant to interact together in a coordinated way.

Yeah, and yeah, you know, they used to think, you know, well, if you adopt a baby straight from the hospital, you know, everything's gonna be fine, and they're just a blank slate. And we found that there is so much that happens in utero that just, I mean, it just affects everything.

Michelle L Maikoetter (12:36)

Yes. Yeah.

Because we know that, you know, memory and DNA is really memory carried forward, right? And so anything that happens in utero and then specifically attachment and bonding time. So there's sensitive developmental periods for attachment and bonding. That zero to two weeks is a critical period. And if babies get removed during that time, they're often either in a NICU or they're waiting to be sent to a family. And so that's a critical, sensitive developmental period. And so and then that zero to two months is another sensitive developmental period for attachment and bonding.

Matt Darrah (12:40)

These are the memory carried forward, right? And so anything that happens in utero and then specifically attachment and bonding times. So there's sensitive developmental periods for attachment and bonding that serves two weeks as a comfortable period. And if babies get removed during that time, they're often either in

And so that's a critical, sensitive developmental period. then that zero to two months is another sensitive developmental period for attachment and bonding.

Michelle L Maikoetter (13:07)

And so just like you were saying, it doesn't mean then that even if you adopt a baby at birth that there won't be any effects. Not saying there will all be negative effects, but there's still that that groundwork has been laid down and might be disorganized or disrupted based on the difficulties or the challenges during that in utero time.

Matt Darrah (13:08)

And so just like you were saying, it doesn't mean then that even if you adopt a baby at birth that there won't be any effects. Not saying there will all be negative effects, but there's still that groundwork has been laid down and it might be disorganized or disrupted based on the difficulties or the challenges during that in-neural time.

So then once that So then once that first kind of inside portion happens, what goes on next?

Michelle L Maikoetter (13:37)

So it's really, you it's a combination of a lot of things that are supposed to happen, right? So we can have issues with either there being some ⁓ abuse where there's actual physical or sexual abuse that we wish didn't happen, but then there's also things that are supposed to happen. And so if we have a present, attentive, attuned, responsive caregiver who, when we cry or we make, or we have a demand, so we need to be changed or we need to be held or we need to be fed, that we have a caregiver who's able to consistently meet those needs,

Matt Darrah (13:40)

to happen, right? So we can have issues with either there being some ⁓ abuse, whether there's actual physical or sexual abuse that we wish didn't happen, but then there's also things that are supposed to happen. And so if we have a present, attentive, attuned, responsive caregiver who, when we...

Michelle L Maikoetter (14:07)

It's showing that our nervous system is getting stressed and then because our caregiver responds in the way that they need to, then our stress resolves and we get calm again. And you can think about how many times that happens for a baby if their needs are met when they're asking for something that they need and it's met over and over again and how that helps create this consistent stress response system that can be activated but then can be soothed by an external caregiver. And then the opposite would also occur.

Matt Darrah (14:07)

It's showing that our nervous system is getting stressed and then because our caregiver responds in the way that they need to, our stress resolves and we can call them again. And you can think about how many times that happens for a baby if their needs are met when they're asking for something that they need and it's met over and over again.

how that helps create this consistent stress response system that can be activated, that then can be soothed by an external caregiver. And then the opposite would also occur. So

Michelle L Maikoetter (14:37)

if a need is expressed and a baby's need isn't able to be met by the caregiver, so maybe the caregiver's depressed, maybe the child's been left to an older sibling to take care of, maybe nobody comes at all, then

Matt Darrah (14:37)

if a need is expressed and a baby's need isn't able to be met by the caregiver, maybe the caregiver's depressed, maybe the child's been left to an older sibling to take care of, nobody comes at all.

Michelle L Maikoetter (14:49)

that stress response stays activated, does not get suited by the caregiver, and then it becomes what we call sensitized, so sensitive to stress in the future. And so you'll hear a lot of times that sometimes we'll hear they were such an easy baby because they never cried.

Matt Darrah (14:49)

then that stress response stays activated, does not get suited by the caregiver. And then it becomes what we call sensitized, so sensitive to stress in the future. And so you'll a lot of times that sometimes we'll hear they were such an easy baby because they never cried.

And what we know is a lot of times it's because the child expressed a need and wasn't met, and the only thing they could do at that young of an age is to dissociate. Physically present and emotionally.

Michelle L Maikoetter (15:05)

And what we know is a lot of times it's because the child expressed a need and it wasn't met. And the only thing they could do at that, that young of an age is to dissociate, which means physically present, but emotionally you're not really

there. You're not really present. And so that's our only really mechanism or defense mechanism when we're that young. And so the need quits being expressed because there was never an answer to the need.

Matt Darrah (15:18)

Right. Right. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (15:30)

And so again, that stress response system comes into play with everything that we do. It's meant to be balanced. It's meant to be reactive in an organized way, in a proportional way. But then once it gets sensitized, and that's not just that young age, you can be sensitized for a lot of reasons, but then it becomes overreactive and overly responsive. So any of us that have experienced unpredictable, uncontrollable, severe amounts of stress can become sensitized and our stress response system

Matt Darrah (15:30)

And so, again, that stress response system comes into play with everything that we do. It's meant to be balanced. It's meant to be reactive in an organized way, in a proportional way, that once it gets sensitized. And that's not just that young age. You can be sensitized for a lot of reasons. But then it becomes overreactive and overly responsive. So any of us that have experienced unpredictable

severe amounts of stress can become sensitized in our stress response

system. And most people recognize this, especially if you've experienced grief or something dramatic, how you become emotionally reactive, more on edge, more explosive maybe. And it's because of that sensitized stress response system.

Michelle L Maikoetter (16:00)

And most people recognize this, especially if you've experienced grief or something traumatic, how you become emotionally reactive, more on edge, more explosive maybe. And it's because of that sensitized stress response system.

Matt Darrah (16:14)

Yeah, I remember in Karen Purvis's book, ⁓ she talks about going to China and walking into these orphanages and there's 30 or 40 cribs and it is deathly quiet because babies learn if I cry nobody comes. So I just stop crying. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (16:33)

Yeah, and then even, you know, the research that shows the ones that because of overcrowding,

they had to put a couple of babies in cribs together that those babies actually did better because they had social interaction just with the babies. Yeah.

Matt Darrah (16:39)

and cribs together that those babies actually did better. social interactions with the other babies.

So a lot of times with kiddos, if we see them acting out in certain ways, there's a pretty decent chance that they're reacting to something that has pulled them back to something previously in their past.

Michelle L Maikoetter (17:14)

It could be that. could be, I mean, I think it's kind of interesting how we have a very... ⁓

Matt Darrah (17:16)

think it's kind of interesting how we have a very, I

Michelle L Maikoetter (17:20)

I don't know, kind

Matt Darrah (17:20)

don't know.

Michelle L Maikoetter (17:21)

of this view that children are doing everything intentionally, right? Like everything is willful, everything is thought out and premeditated, whereas if the cortex is responsible for impulse control, is responsible for future-oriented thinking, and isn't fully developed to the mid-20s, early 30s, then kiddos do not have such a complex capacity for those kind of things. And so we recognize that in ourselves when we make mistakes. We know we retire.

Matt Darrah (17:22)

Right. Right. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (17:50)

or we were stressed or we were overwhelmed and

that's why we didn't perform the way we wanted to or that's at work or within our relationships. But then when kids make mistakes, we have this unrealistic expectation that they should, one, that they should be able to perform like adults do. And then two, that it was intentional and that they need to be punished for it instead of understanding that, you know, all of us want to do, want to do the best that we can. And when we can't, there's something going on that's preventing us from being able to do it. And it's our jobs as parents,

Matt Darrah (17:52)

or we didn't perform the way we wanted to, or that's at work.

relationships. But then when kids make mistakes, have this unrealistic expectation that they should, one, that they should be able to perform like adults do. And then two, that it was intentional and that they need to be punished for it instead of understanding that all of us want to do the best that we can. And when we can't, there's something going on that's preventing us from being able to do it. Our jobs as parents,

Michelle L Maikoetter (18:20)

supervisors to see what do we need to do to help you be able to perform as well as you can. Instead

Matt Darrah (18:20)

as supervisors, to see what do we need to do to help you be able to perform as well as you can.

Instead of going straight to you need to be punished because you were doing this on purpose. of looking at it as there was hired. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (18:26)

of going straight to you need to be punished because you were doing this on purpose. Instead of looking at it as they were tired, they were overwhelmed, even if we don't understand. Right. And so I think that's a piece of it is what you're talking about is if we've had these really difficult early experiences with caregivers not meeting our needs consistently and then we have a sensitive stress response, we can see these big reactions to things.

Matt Darrah (18:35)

even if we don't understand, right? And so I think that's a piece of it is what you're talking about is if we've had these really difficult early experiences with caregivers not meeting our needs consistently, and then we have a sensitive stress response, we can see these reactions to things

Michelle L Maikoetter (18:50)

that we think shouldn't have been that big a deal. so often it has to do with novelty. So something changes, a transition out of one activity to another. Novelty is a stress for us. Change something, it adds a little bit of threat response for us.

Matt Darrah (18:50)

that we think shouldn't have been that big a deal. And so often it has to do with novelty. So something changes, a transition out of one activity to another. Novelty is a stress, change something, it's a little bit of a threat response for us.

Michelle L Maikoetter (19:05)

And so for children that are already, or anyone who's already sensitive to any kind of change like that, it can really push them over the edge. And so when we say, I know I said we were gonna go Chick-fil-A, but we ran out of time, we're not going down, and the kid has a meltdown.

Matt Darrah (19:18)

Right.

Michelle L Maikoetter (19:20)

we kind of feel like, it's just because they didn't get what they want. ⁓ Instead of understanding, their stress response, their stress system is already overwhelmed, and we've kind of pushed them over the edge of what they can handle.

Matt Darrah (19:32)

Yeah. Right.

So understanding why kids do what they are doing can help us respond with compassion and empathy to recognize, like you said, they're not making this logical, rational decision to go and do this or that. They're responding to what's going on around them and reflecting back.

Michelle L Maikoetter (19:58)

Yeah, and for any one of us,

yeah, and for any one of us, when we're in a stressful situation, if you think about a time when maybe you've behaved badly and then later on when your cortex came back online, you kind of said, I can't believe I did that or I can't believe I said that, right? And so what we know is when we talk about the brain developing from the bottom to the top, that when we get stressed, it shuts down from the top to the bottom.

Matt Darrah (20:03)

situation if you think about a time when maybe

When your cortex came back online, you kind of said, I can't believe I did that, or I can't believe I said that. And so what we know is when we talk about the brain developing from the bottom to the top, that when we get stressed, it shuts down from the top to the bottom.

Michelle L Maikoetter (20:21)

kind of our most thoughtful or most sophisticated area shuts down first because in order to survive the brain

Matt Darrah (20:21)

Kind of our most thoughtful, our most sophisticated area shuts down first, because in order to survive, the brain.

Michelle L Maikoetter (20:28)

needs to react in a physical way that's its first go-to is to react first think later and so we're always wanting you to think first but that's really against our biology a little bit to keep us alive and so you know understanding that when we see these kind of behaviors even in our cells a lot of times because that cortex is shut down and it is a more

Matt Darrah (20:28)

needs to react in a physical way. That's its first go to is to react first, think later. We're always wanting you to think first, but that's really against our biology. And so, you know, understanding that when we see these kind of behaviors, even in ourselves, lot of times because that cortex is shut down and it is a more

Michelle L Maikoetter (20:51)

emotional response or more reflexive response than what we're

Matt Darrah (20:51)

emotional response or more reflexive response than what

Michelle L Maikoetter (20:55)

looking for. And so that makes sense, right? When you think about the time you've done something that was, you know, maybe over the top, maybe you yelled or maybe you used language you wish you wouldn't have. And then later on you think, I can't believe I did that. It's because the cortex is back and it's helping you reflect on it. But in the moment, those lower areas of the brain are more activated and they're the ones that are running the show at that moment and that cortex is shut down.

Matt Darrah (20:56)

So that makes sense, right? When you think about the time you've done something that was maybe over the top, maybe you yelled, or maybe you used language you wish you wouldn't But later on, you think, I can't believe I did that. It's because the cortex is back, and it's helping you reflect on it. But in the moment, the lower areas of the brain are activated, and they're the ones that are running the show at that moment, and that cortex is shut down.

So kind of have a basic understanding, we talked about the, there's the four layers of the triangle, right? So we talked about the brainstem. Let's talk about the other three and kind of timeframes just so people can understand maybe where these kids are approximately at.

Michelle L Maikoetter (21:39)

Yeah, so I think, know, so again, that upside down triangle is Dr. Perry's heuristic for a model of the brain, which is overly simplified, obviously, because the brain is extremely complex. And I'm sure you've seen the images that have a bajillion different things labeled on it. But that upside down triangle is just a representation of how the brain, the areas of the brain develop. And so the brain stem is the first area to develop that we already talked about. That next area to develop is the diencephalon.

Matt Darrah (21:41)

So again, the episode.

which is overly simplified obviously because the brain is extremely complex. You see the images that have a bajillion different things labeled on it, but that upside down triangle is just a representation of how the brain, the areas of the brain develop. so the brain stem is the first area to develop.

that next area to develop is the diencephalon,

Michelle L Maikoetter (22:06)

and then the limbic system, and then the cortex. And so all those areas are in the greatest time of development from that zero to three. So again, not that there isn't any cortex available, just it's not very developed when you're born because you you could try to reason with a baby if you wanted to about why they shouldn't be crying, it's not gonna get you anywhere. Although we do that still, we do that with two and three year olds, we wanna reason with them, it'd be logical, right? And so just knowing that anything that occurs during that

Matt Darrah (22:07)

and then the limbic system, and then the cortex. And so all those areas are in the greatest time of development from that zero to three. So again, not that there isn't any cortex available, it's just it's not very developed when you're born, because you you could try to reason with a baby why they should be crying, although we do that still, we do that with two and three year olds, and it's be logical, right? And so just knowing that anything that occurs during...

Michelle L Maikoetter (22:34)

time,

can impact the way those areas of the brain develop. So they're meant to act more like...

orchestra so that there's a director of the cortex if you want to call it that who is saying these instruments come out now these recede now we hear these more now these go back and it's meant to be in a very balanced and integrated way so that you can have a proportional response so if I'm in a conversation and I get upset that I can be regulated enough meaning that I have enough control of my energy and my attention to respond in a thoughtful way instead of a reactive way but if I'm sensitized

Matt Darrah (22:40)

So that there's a director of the cortex, if you want to call it that, who is saying, these instruments come out now, these recede now, we hear these more now, these go back. And it's meant to be in a very balanced and integrated way so that you can have a proportional response. So if I'm in a conversation and I get upset that I can be regulated enough, meaning that I have enough.

to respond in a thoughtful way instead of a reactive way. But if I'm sensitized

Michelle L Maikoetter (23:10)

or sensitive, then I might have a disproportionate response. So rather than my cortex being to kind of tamp things down and say it's okay, you don't need to get upset about this, this cortex starts to shut down. I have a more emotional response. If I keep getting depressed, I'll have a more reactive,

Matt Darrah (23:10)

or sensitive, then I might have a disproportionate response. Rather than my cortex being to kind of tamp things down and say, it's OK, you don't need to get upset about this, this cortex starts to shut down. I have more emotional response. If I keep getting depressed, I'll have a more reactive

Michelle L Maikoetter (23:28)

reflexive response because I'll have dropped to those lower areas of my brain being more activated and running the show.

Matt Darrah (23:34)

Yeah, so what about as things I know you said the most Growth comes zero to three then how about kind of age-wise? Roughly do things become more I Know you said that the the the top of the brain, you know 20s the early 30s

What about those two in between pieces?

Michelle L Maikoetter (23:59)

Yeah, so if you were to guess, when do you think the limbic system, so the

emotional attachment relational system, when do you think that's the most active?

Matt Darrah (24:04)

What do you think is the active?

Most active? hmm I don't know. mean, you would think probably... ⁓ right, adolescence, yeah. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (24:12)

it's adolescence. Yeah, yeah. It's when we think back, like if you think back to your adolescence.

you probably think about some of the things that you did and you can't believe you did it right, that you wouldn't do now that you have a fully developed cortex, right? And in adolescence, that limbic system is in most active development. And so, it's not that they don't have a cortex, right? We know that adolescents can think and be thoughtful and very creative and those kind of things. But the limbic system is so active in development during that time that what's most important to us is fitting in with our peer group, right? Those relational connections. And so, what we see is that they might

Matt Darrah (24:20)

you probably think about some of the things that you did, and believe you did it right, but you wouldn't do now if you didn't a cortex, right? And adolescents, that limbic system is in most active development, and so it's not that they don't have a cortex, right? We that adolescents don't.

can think and be thoughtful and very creative and those kind things. But the limbic system is so active in development during that time that what's most important to us is fitting in with our peer groups and our informational connections. And so what we see is that they might

Michelle L Maikoetter (24:50)

determined if I do this, I'm probably going to break my arm, but be really cool and everybody will love me for it. So that overrides. Whereas, yeah, when you get older and you go, that's crazy, I'm not going to do that. Right. So

Matt Darrah (24:50)

determine if I do this, I'm probably gonna break my arm. It would be really cool. I do this. Right, yeah, yeah. Whereas, yeah, where if they're old and you get older and you go, that's crazy, I'm not gonna do this. Right, yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (25:03)

it's also why like when you hear music that was important to you from that age, it has a disproportionate, powerful emotional effect for you. Right. Yeah. And it's because that system was the most activated, most in development during that

Matt Darrah (25:04)

It's also why when you hear music that was important to you from that age, has a different disproportionate powerful emotional effect for you. And it's because that system was the most activated, or most in development during

that time. OK, yeah. So if we talk about.

All of this, and we have just a bare bones understanding of kind of when things are active and developing. How do we apply this as parents when we know, you know, okay, know Susie had a rough start, you know, she came when she was two and things like that or whatever. How do we take this?

head knowledge of understanding in how the brain is developing or should be developing. And then we see this child acting in a way that doesn't make sense or doesn't seem to fit. How do we apply this as parents ⁓ of kiddos that have these sensitized stress response systems?

Michelle L Maikoetter (26:18)

Yeah, so I do think a lot of it is psychoeducation about the difference between something being willful, defiance.

something being dysregulation, which we're going to say dysregulation about a hundred times, but that inability to control your, ⁓ you know, your energy and your attention the way that you want to. And so what we see, especially that zero to two and those foundational pathways are being laid down is if you have that sensitive stress response, then small things will push you over the edge. And so, you know, it could be being tired. It could be food textures. It could be the change in scheduling. It could be getting bumped by somebody.

Matt Darrah (26:40)

ways are being laid down is if you have that sensitive stress response, then small things will push you to the edge. And so, you know, it could be being tired, could be food textures, it could be the change in scheduling, it could be getting bumped by somebody,

Michelle L Maikoetter (26:56)

It could you know someone new showing up to the house or the classroom or whatever and so I think psychoeducation is a big piece just to allow for some some compassion some grace some understanding because this applies to all of us not not just the kids

Matt Darrah (26:56)

could, you know, someone new showing up to the house or the classroom or whatever. And so I think psychoeducation is a big piece just to allow for some compassion, some grace, some understanding, because this applies to all of us. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (27:11)

Because what needs to happen is everything that we want to have happened

birth right so when you think about consistently meeting someone's needs and Dr. Purvis talks about this a lot about how many times did a caregiver meet that child's right to create this attachment to create predictability and consistency then when you haven't had that we need just as many repetitions of those needs being met in a consistent way in a nurturing way

Matt Darrah (27:23)

Yeah. about how many times did a caregiver meet that child's needs, right, to create this attachment. Yeah.

We need just as many repetitions of those needs being met in a consistent way, in nurturing way,

the way you would with a baby instead of in punishing way or a shaming way. ⁓ And so needing those same kind of needs being met, but often, what's required for someone to learn how to self-regulate, so to self-qualm or self-soothe, is that first we have to have a caregiver soothe us.

Michelle L Maikoetter (27:44)

the way you would with a baby instead of in a punishing way or a shaming way. And so needing the same kind of needs being met, but often.

you know, what's required for someone to learn how to self-regulate, so to self calm or self soothe, is that first we have to have a caregiver soothe us, like

when we do when we're a child, and then we can go through what's called co-regulation, where you can help me soothe myself by, it's okay, take some deep breaths, let's sit down, let's go for a walk, and to the point that then I develop.

Matt Darrah (28:10)

Right.

Michelle L Maikoetter (28:19)

the

ability to regulate myself, but you can't skip those developmental periods. You can't go from not being able to. So when we say you need to go to your room and calm down, if I don't have the developmental sequence in place, I'm gonna go to my room and I'm gonna tear it up. And then we're confused, right? Because we were supposed to go calm down and make it worse because we're not understanding. We are not understanding. ⁓

Matt Darrah (28:19)

the ability to regulate myself. But you can't skip those developmental periods. can't go from not being able to. So what we say, you need to go to your room and calm down. If I don't have the developmental sequence in place, I'm going go in my room and I'm going to tear it up. And then we're confused, right? Because we were supposed to go calm down and make it worse. We're not understanding.

Michelle L Maikoetter (28:46)

We're not understanding that sequence and that you can't skip.

Matt Darrah (28:51)

So yeah, you're talking mean you're talking thousands, you know, just just in the first couple years you're talking thousands tens of thousands of times when I have a need and the need is met and I have them need and so you know if you've got a an eight-year-old that didn't have that then you're gonna try to recreate that Thousands of times where they're where they're where you're helping them to

Michelle L Maikoetter (28:54)

repetition.

Yes.

Yes.

Matt Darrah (29:15)

regulate and come, you know, get that brain back online and being able to think and things like that. is, No, I think that's exactly right. It's like we want it to go faster, The developmentally what's respectful. And so exactly what you're saying, that that need has to be met over and over and over over again, because you're trying to create that nice balanced stress response system. Instead of that.

Michelle L Maikoetter (29:22)

Yeah, and so I do. think that's exactly right. It's like.

We want it to go faster, right? Developmentally what's respectful. And so exactly what you're saying, that that need has to be met over and over and over over again, because you're trying to create that nice balanced stress response system instead of the

continuing to create a sensitized stress response system. And so if we have the right amount of stress, I we know this about exercise or physical activity is like if we have the right amount of stress, if you have moderate predictable

Matt Darrah (29:44)

continuing to create a sensitized stress response system. And so if we have the right amount of stress, we know this about exercise or physical activity, it's like if we have the right amount of stress, you have moderate, predictable,

Michelle L Maikoetter (29:57)

controllable amount of stress, you're going to build resilience.

Matt Darrah (29:57)

controllable amount of stress, you're gonna build resilience. If I wanna run a marathon and I follow a nice little plan that builds me up to the point I can run a marathon, if I go out tomorrow and I try to run 20 miles, I'm gonna be hurt and not get very far.

Michelle L Maikoetter (30:00)

If I want to run a marathon and I follow a nice little plan that builds me up to the point I can run a marathon. If I go out tomorrow and I try to run 20 miles, I'm going to be hurt and not get very far with all these

kinds of things because it was too much. It was uncontrollable, severe, unpredictable instead of a nice plan. And this is the same thing that we need to build strength in these different networks is that we need to have this consistent, predictable, attuned response to our needs. And it takes so many repetitions of that because again,

Matt Darrah (30:13)

because it was too much, it uncontrollable, severe, unpredictable instead of a nice plan. And this is the same thing that we need to build, strengthen these different networks, is that we need to have this consistent, predictable, attuned response toward.

and it takes so many repetitions of that because again

Michelle L Maikoetter (30:30)

brain was most active development that zero to three and so it's going to take more repetitions now to help rebuild some of those things and and one of Dr. Perry's you know quotes is about when you go through therapy or you have anything therapeutic you're not wiping out those old pathways you're new pathways and it's like you know a dirt road you start out with a dirt road you keep

Matt Darrah (30:30)

that brain was most active development, that zero to three. So it's gonna take more repetitions now to help rebuild some of those things. And one of Dr. Perry's quotes is about when you go through therapy or you have anything therapeutic, you're not wiping out those old pathways. You're building new pathways and it's like a dirt road, you start out with a dirt road.

keep going through that road you build some ruts eventually might lay down some cement until it dries but that other

Michelle L Maikoetter (30:55)

going through that road you build some ruts eventually might lay down some cement until it dries but that other

pathway is still there. If we have the right given circumstances, enough stress, enough overwhelm, and enough things that are connected to our past, we can go back to those really kind of regressive behaviors or things that we did previously. It doesn't mean they just go away. It's still there, but we're trying to build these other pathways through getting needs met. It's a really, I didn't answer your question, so really for caregivers.

Matt Darrah (31:00)

pathway is still there. If we have the right given circumstances enough stress enough overwhelm and the things that are connected to our past we can go back to those really kind of regressive behaviors or things that we did previously doesn't mean they just go away. It's still there but we're trying to build these other pathways through getting these met. Is it really I didn't answer your question so really for caregivers

Michelle L Maikoetter (31:24)

to be regulated themselves first. So to understand, I think that is a huge shift. When you go into a setting, and I know even in residential, I would be called in in crisis situations. When you go into a setting and your approach is to be regulated first, instead of trying to stop something or control something, which is usually how we go into behaviors or when kids are given these challenges, but to go in where I have to be regulated and then regulate the child.

Matt Darrah (31:24)

to be regulated themselves first. to understand, I think that is a huge shift when you go into a setting, and I know even in residential I would be called in in crisis situations. When you go into a setting and your approach is to be regulated first, instead of trying to stop something or control something, which is usually how we go into behaviors or when kids are given these challenges, but to go in where I have to be regulated and then regulate the child.

⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (31:54)

so that we can be relational, so that then we can talk about and reflect on. So that's one of the things that we were talking about earlier is if I want you to learn from an experience, you have to be in your cortex. You have to be reflective. When you are in those lower areas or activated, you're not going to be able to learn. Lecturing you or threatening you is not going to have any result development.

Matt Darrah (31:54)

so that we can be relational. So that then we can talk about and reflect on. So that's one of the things that we were talking about earlier is if I want you to learn from an experience, you have to be in your cortex. You have to be reflective. When you are in those lower areas, you're activated. You're not going to be able to work. Lecturing you or threatening you is not going to have any result in development.

So, you know, we have to be constantly willing to learn and, know, because, I mean, you know, even, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, I mean, you know, we know so much more today than we did, you know, I...

I was watching through Special Victims Unit, the old Law and Order show. And Dr. Wong on there at one point, he's talking about the DSM-IV and how basically when you, by this point in time, you're done. Like there's no...

Michelle L Maikoetter (32:45)

Yes.

Matt Darrah (32:59)

There's no fixing, there's no learning, there's no going and overcoming. It's like your personality's fixed and there's nothing to do about it. ⁓ And so as parents, we need to be ⁓ always trying to learn how...

how to interact and you know, I mean, even think about it from our perspective, know, I mean, I've done a lot of reading and a lot of podcasting and this and that and trying to learn and you know, and I can't learn it and I can't go to a seminar one time, listen to it and go home and apply it perfectly from then on, right? And so we have to be willing to constantly go back to

Michelle L Maikoetter (33:42)

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Darrah (33:48)

the material and learn a little bit more, maybe stay regulated a little bit longer, have a little bit more compassion. ⁓ And so being willing to learn. then I would, I don't know that always, you know, probably the biggest thing is keeping that co-regulation piece in mind saying, I need to offer this child my regulation.

And ⁓ so what if you can't? What if you're activated too high and you can't?

Michelle L Maikoetter (34:18)

Yeah, my column. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, and so, you know, we talk a lot about there's times when you're not going to be able to offer your calm, right? And so if you have someone, a partner, someone else who's helping you that you can tag out with, I mean, that's ideal, right? If in that moment you need to separate yourself so that you don't hurt someone or you don't do something, then you need to separate yourself. I know we all have this rule.

Matt Darrah (34:31)

so if you have someone, a partner, someone else who's helping you that you can tag out with, that's ideal, right? If in that moment you need to separate yourself so that you don't hurt someone or you don't do something, then you need to separate yourself. I know we all have this rule.

It's gotta be handled right in this moment.

Michelle L Maikoetter (34:48)

It's got to be handled right in this moment.

If it's handled the wrong way in that moment, it's not going to get us the results that we want either. And so tagging out, making sure that if you have a partner or someone that's helping you with raising your kids, that y'all know. Either you know what's going to make me upset or you know what I look like when I'm upset. If I can't notice it, then you tell, you know, I have, we have several little code words, but like, you know, why don't you go to your room and I'll take care of this? Or I think what you're trying to say is this and, you know, we have a little

Matt Darrah (34:53)

is the results that we want either. so tagging out, making sure that if you have a partner or someone that's helping you with.

with raising your kids that y'all know, either you know what's gonna make me upset or you what I look like when I'm upset. If I can't notice it, then you tell, you know, I have, we have several little code words, but like, you know, why don't you go to your room and I'll take care of this? Or I think what you're trying to say is this, you know, we have a

Michelle L Maikoetter (35:18)

partnership there if you have that that nice luxury. If not there's times when you need to step back

Matt Darrah (35:18)

little partnership there if you have that nice luxury. If not, there's times when you need to step back.

Michelle L Maikoetter (35:25)

and make sure that's the first thing you do because again going in and just like you're saying being open you know when we're stressed we can't be curious.

Matt Darrah (35:25)

And make sure that's the first thing you do because again, going in and just like you're saying being open, you know, when we're stressed, we can't be curious.

Yeah. Right. And so sometimes that's what's so hard about parenting is like when you need the help the most is when you're least able to take it in. like the kids. Yeah. Right. And so because I can't be curious about things unless that cortex is open. if I'm stressed and I'm more shut down, I'm to be more emotionally reactive. And you trying to educate me is only going to irritate me.

Michelle L Maikoetter (35:34)

Right? And so sometimes that's what's so hard about parenting is that when you need the help the most is when you're least able to take it in. Just like the kids. Right? And so because I can't be curious about things unless that cortex is open. And so if I'm stressed and I'm more shut down, I'm going to be more emotionally reactive. And you trying to educate me is only going to irritate me.

Right? Because I don't have time for that. And just like what you're saying, and it takes so much. can't. And that's what's so hard about this is because everybody wants

Matt Darrah (35:55)

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Michelle L Maikoetter (36:04)

these three things or these five things, right? And you want it to be like I went to a seminar and I should be able to do this now. And the truth is and kind of what you've alluded to is so much of it is about our

work and what we have to do.

Matt Darrah (36:15)

And what we have to do

to be able to be regulated. And I know self-care's gotten thrown around a lot, and I hate to talk about self-care, but what I hear often from caregivers is I don't have time to care for me. It's impossible to take care someone else in a healthy way if you're not healthy. Right? And so knowing that important piece of helping whoever you love.

Michelle L Maikoetter (36:17)

to be able to be regulated. And I know self-care is getting thrown around a lot and I hate to talk about self-care, but what I hear often from caregivers is I don't have time to take care of me. It's impossible to take care of someone else in a healthy way if you're not healthy, right? And so knowing that...

important piece of helping whoever you love, whoever

you're trying to help, is that you have to be healthy. And so it's not just when you're upset. That's not what we think too, is like when you're upset, go do this. It's all those other things. And one of the things we've kind of touched on, but really is relational supports.

Matt Darrah (36:42)

you're trying to help is that you have to be healthy. So it's not just when you're upset. That's not what we think too, it's like when you're upset, go do this.

⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (36:58)

relationships are meant to buffer our stress for us. We're meant to help carry that load through other people. You don't have the relational supports in place. You can't hold that stress all by yourself. You can't do everything by yourself. And then we've kind of been told this myth that you should be able to. No one can. And then we lose our relation when we're really stressed. It's hard for us to reach out. It's hard for us to ask for help.

Matt Darrah (37:14)

Right. ⁓

But really those relationships are meant to help us carry that load.

Michelle L Maikoetter (37:22)

But really, those relationships are meant to help us carry that load.

what helps us be more regulated is if we have those relational connections and are intentional about making sure we keep them.

Matt Darrah (37:26)

That's what helps us be more regulated, is if we have those relational connections that are intentional about making sure we keep it up. and that's a big part of the reason why foster parents struggle so much is there's alienation from your community a lot of times. I I hear this so often that, you know,

Nobody at church understands, nobody here understands, you nobody gets it. And so, there's this alienation, and then you don't have that relational buffer to lean back on to try to, you know, move forward.

Michelle L Maikoetter (38:08)

Yep, and then you have plenty of people who don't understand.

some of the struggles telling you what you should be doing. Right. And so that's the other piece is then that's even more alienating. It's like and I see I hate that too, especially with with churches, because I feel like churches really encourage foster and adoption. But then the struggles that come along with that is not often supported or acknowledged. And so then I do think you feel very isolated and you can't carry the weight of this on your own in a healthy way. It's just too much. And we're meant to be, you know,

Matt Darrah (38:21)

Yeah. because I feel like churches really encourage foster and adoption but then the struggles that come along with that is not often supported or acknowledged. And so then I do think, you you feel very isolated and you can't carry the weight of this on your own.

Michelle L Maikoetter (38:42)

meant to be in community with one another, to support one another, but we've kind of lost sight of that the relational connections is what makes the difference.

Matt Darrah (38:51)

Right.

Michelle L Maikoetter (38:52)

And the same way with when we have punishments or have consequences for kids, we do a lot of things that sends them away from us. You have to go do this task without understanding that that's fine if if child needs to make something right. They broke something or they need to fix something or they need to repay something. But the idea is that it needs to be in a relational context for us to learn again to borrow that calm from that regulated adult who cares about me, who I care about,

Matt Darrah (38:54)

Right. have to go do this task without understanding that that's fine if you child needs to make something right. If they broke something or they need to fix something or they need to repay something. But the idea is that it needs to be in a relational context for us to learn. Again, to borrow that calm from that regulated adult who cares about me, who I care

Michelle L Maikoetter (39:20)

not someone who I'm scared of and don't.

Matt Darrah (39:20)

not someone who I'm scared of and don't,

Michelle L Maikoetter (39:22)

That's not the right, that's not the right thing, but it's like, and so I used to be really concerned about the consequence, but now I'm really more about as long as it's in a relationship, the consequence can be whatever, as long as it's not harmful, but I mean, as long as it's in a caring relationship, that's how you're gonna learn. It's not by you going off and doing something by yourself.

Matt Darrah (39:22)

that's not the right, that's not the right thing, but it's like, and so I used to be really concerned about the consequence, but now I'm really more about as long as it's in a relationship, the consequence can be whatever. But I mean, as long as it's in a caring relationship, that's how you're gonna learn. It's not by you going off and doing something by yourself.

Yeah, it's so much of everything just just boils down to relationship. know, the relationship is so important early on to develop, but then you don't have it. And so you fix it with relationship.

Michelle L Maikoetter (40:04)

Yeah, so if you think about some of the things that we do, you know, and I did some of these things before I knew better, but you know, we'll threaten to break the relationship, right? If you don't stop doing that, we're going to leave you here. Right? It breaks my heart when I people say that. But that's what we withdraw the relationship as a punishment.

Matt Darrah (40:07)

you know, and I did some of these things before I knew better, you

Right.

Michelle L Maikoetter (40:24)

And so when you understand how much stress that puts on us to be out of relationship is one of the most stressful things we can experience. And to understand that any challenge, goal, you know, my kids are grown now, they're

20 and 23, but the challenge is always to maintain the relationship, make it better, or at least maintain it.

Matt Darrah (40:38)

The challenge is always to maintain the relationship. Make it better, or at least maintain it.

And so, again, approaching those things with being regulated yourself so you can help them regulate and that you want to maintain the relationship is a different approach than what most of us are used to. But it's exactly what you're talking about. If my kids can't come to me when they need help, then we're.

Michelle L Maikoetter (40:45)

And so, again, approaching those things with being regulated yourself so you can help them regulate and that you want to maintain the relationship is a different approach than what most of us are used to. But it's exactly what you're talking about. If my kids can't come to me when they need help, then what

was I doing? You know, what am I doing as a parent? Because you want them to able to come to you. And kind of the way we set things up is to make sure they don't come to us when they need help.

Matt Darrah (41:04)

what was I doing, what am I doing as a parent, because you want them to be able to come to you. And kind of the way we set things up is to make sure they don't come to us.

Yeah, that's just, mm, you, yeah, you're right. mean, when we think about, because so much of what we do,

Michelle L Maikoetter (41:17)

you

Matt Darrah (41:26)

We just repeating, you know, what was what was done and you know, and if you if you stop and think about you know the generational Things, you know, mean, you know, you know Getting getting your butt whipped, you know ⁓ And you know, it's just getting yelled at or whatever. These are we we tend to parent the way that we were parented ⁓ and you know And if you just think about how things

went with the World War II, silent generation, the boomers, and all the things. And so we have to break out of just doing things the way that it was done for us.

Michelle L Maikoetter (42:11)

Right. And that's, it goes back to what we were talking about. You have to be regulated enough to be that reflective, right? And to look at, can remember my husband and I disagreeing when my daughter was three about a consequence. ⁓ She was misbehaving in church and so the consequence was going to be that we weren't going go eat breakfast with her grandparents afterwards.

Matt Darrah (42:21)

disagree when my daughter was three about a consequence. She was misbehaving in church. so the consequence was going to be that we weren't going go eat breakfast with her grandparents.

And I remember talking like, what are we doing? Why would we do that? We're just punishing ourselves. Anyway, but exactly if you don't kind of reflect on, did that really do what I wanted to do? Is that really the way it should be done? If we just do things reflexively like that, we're going to love the way that we've

Michelle L Maikoetter (42:32)

And I remember talking like, what are we doing? Like, why would we do that? Like, we're just punishing ourselves, you know? And so anyway, but exactly if you don't kind of reflect on, did that really do what I wanted, you know, what I want it to do? Is that really the way it should be done? If we just do things reflexively like that, we're going to love the way that we've been

loved. We're going to parent the way that we've been parented, unless we do something intentionally different. And you have to be in a space to be able to learn that, to do something different.

Matt Darrah (42:56)

and you have to be in a city to be able to learn that, to do something different.

Michelle L Maikoetter (43:01)

Because I think any one of us, if you think about people in your life

Matt Darrah (43:01)

Because I think any one of us, if you think about people in your life...

Michelle L Maikoetter (43:05)

who have helped you learn and grow,

You're not going to say it was the teacher that beat my butt and was mean to me, right? It's going to be this teacher you had a relationship with, us that cared about you. mean, and so it's so interesting to me because when we do those exercises, those are the people that will come out, the special people in our lives that took care to get to know us, to put some investment in us, to help support us. It's not the people that were mean to us, that punished us, that made us feel worse about ourselves.

Matt Darrah (43:08)

not say it was the teacher that beat my butt. It was me, right? It's gonna be this teacher you had a relationship with, a boss that cared about you. mean, and so it's so interesting to me because when we do those exercises, those are the people that will come out, the special people in our lives that would care to get to know us, to put some investment in us, to help support us. It's not the people that were mean to us, that punished us, that made us feel worse about ourselves.

Michelle L Maikoetter (43:35)

But that's what we keep trying to do to kids to make them perform better.

Matt Darrah (43:36)

But that's what we keep trying to do to kids to make them perform better.

Yeah. Yeah, it just didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Let's talk about a couple of strategies for, like if a kiddo's having just a fallout tantrum, how do you approach that kind of a scenario?

Michelle L Maikoetter (44:02)

So, know, ideally, just like what Dr. Purvis would say is if you catch it, the sooner you catch it, the easier it's going to be, right? So once you get into a full blown meltdown, really the only thing you have on your side is time, right? And so once we've already, it's gone off the rails.

Matt Darrah (44:06)

The sooner you catch it, the easier it's going to be. So once you get into a full blown meltdown, really the only thing you have on your side is time. So once we've already, it's gone off the rails,

Michelle L Maikoetter (44:20)

I have to be regulated and sometimes all I can do is go in and just take deep breaths and I'm probably maybe with my kid I could not get too close to them when they were that way. I had to stay away from them. I would just take deep breaths and try to not to make it worse.

Matt Darrah (44:20)

I have to be regulated and sometimes all I can do is go in and just take deep breaths. I'm probably maybe, and with my kid, I could not get too close to them when they were that way. I had to stay away from them. I would just take deep breaths and try not to make it worse.

Michelle L Maikoetter (44:35)

Right? And so again being that non-anxious presence, that calm presence, they're not going be able to process words. I'm not going to use a lot of words. I'm going to be aware of this size differential because I don't want to be more threatening.

Matt Darrah (44:45)

Yeah. of the size differential, because I don't want to be more threatening.

Michelle L Maikoetter (44:50)

And so side by side, we talk a lot about parallel activities are less threatening to us. So sitting beside you instead of in front of you, taking deep breaths and then waiting. Like

Matt Darrah (44:51)

so side by side, we talk a lot about parallel activities are less threatening to us. So sitting beside you instead of in front of you. Taking deep breaths and then waiting.

Michelle L Maikoetter (45:03)

that's what we feel so much pressure to get things to contained as soon as possible. And it really, you know, usually has the opposite effect. And so if I'm able to go in, maintain my calm,

Matt Darrah (45:03)

That's what we feel so much pressure to get things to contain as soon as possible. And it really usually has the opposite effect. And so if I'm able to go in, maintain my calm,

not try to talk to you and consequent to you and all those kind of things that maintain my calm, hopefully you'll catch my calm. But we have to have that presence of mind when we go in.

Michelle L Maikoetter (45:16)

not try to talk to you and consequence you and all those kind of things but maintain my calm, hopefully you'll catch my calm. And so, but we have to have that presence of mind when we go in. Because

Matt Darrah (45:28)

Because if we go in guns blazing, if you quit doing this, you're not going to get to the other movies tomorrow or whatever. You want to throw up. They're not in the part of the brain that is thinking about consequences. And so we're not speaking the same language at that moment. And

Michelle L Maikoetter (45:28)

if we go in guns a blazing like we, you know, if you go quit doing this, you're not going to get together movies tomorrow, whatever kind of, you know, we want to throw out there. They are not in the part of the brain that is thinking about consequences or time. And so we're just, we're not speaking the same language at that moment. And so, ⁓

And that sounds simple, but it's not easy.

Matt Darrah (45:46)

that sounds simple, but it's not easy.

Michelle L Maikoetter (45:52)

But to catch it sooner makes it easier to not get to that point.

Matt Darrah (45:56)

Yeah,

yeah, so like like say really it it just keeps coming back to being You know physically there and offering Calm you know that that's that's the biggest that's the biggest strategy, right? ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (46:14)

Right and safety right like to not be more of a threat to not add more stress right and so if you're looking at it someone's overwhelmed so I mean if you think about a time when you've been overwhelmed

um if I came up to you and started saying Matt if you don't get over this you know this is what's going to happen is that helping that overwhelm at all no right it's just causing me to be or if I tell you to calm down right that's my favorite and I do too I still do it I'm not saying I don't but if you've ever had someone tell you to calm down when you're upset

Matt Darrah (46:25)

Yeah Yeah. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (46:43)

how little that helps you and how it elevates you, right? And so one of the terms I talk about is like, you have a dog barking at a cat to get out of the tree. It's like me continually to stress you

is not gonna bring the stress down, is not gonna help you calm. So having that shift in our minds about what are we trying to do here ⁓ is really important.

Matt Darrah (46:55)

is not going to bring the stress down, it's not going to help the calm. So having that shift in our mind.

Yeah. I just love this. This is so valuable. ⁓ So let's talk for a second. I didn't put this in here, but let's talk for a second about the safety aspect, right? We're constantly trying to figure out, am I safe? Am I safe? And I don't remember the number that ⁓ Dr. Perry talked about and what happened to you, but you are...

many, many, many times a second trying to figure out, I safe?

Michelle L Maikoetter (47:37)

Yes. So, you know, what helps us survive is to be a part of the group, right? To belong. Because we're very vulnerable on our own. And so any time we enter a room or a situation or a person enters our space, the brain is constantly trying to sort at an unconscious level, not at a thought level. Am I safe? Am I accepted? Right? Am I in the group or am I out? Because if I'm out of the group, I'm not safe.

Matt Darrah (47:39)

You know, what helps us survive is to be a part of the group, right?

And so any time we enter a room or a situation or a person enters our space, the brain's constantly trying to sort at an unconscious level and a thought level, am I safe, am I accepted? Am I in the group or am I out? Because if I'm out of the group, I'm not safe.

Michelle L Maikoetter (48:05)

Right? And so we're constantly bringing, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but it's trying to predict. It's constantly trying to predict what's going to happen next so it can know how to respond.

Matt Darrah (48:05)

And so we're constantly bringing, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but it's trying to predict. It's constantly trying to predict what's going to happen next so it can know how to respond.

Michelle L Maikoetter (48:15)

part of our survival mechanisms again beyond our level of consciousness most of the time but that is consistently it's just like a it's like the spy software on your computer it's constantly running without your awareness and so knowing that I have an expectation for how things are going to go right so we're constantly trying to see what's going to expect what's going to happen and when it doesn't go the way I expected there's going to be a bit of a threat response or a stress response now what's so hard is if my background tells

Matt Darrah (48:43)

Now what's so hard is if my background tells

Michelle L Maikoetter (48:45)

me that adults are not trustworthy or adults are abusive is that I expect you to respond that same way. So when

Matt Darrah (48:45)

me that adults are not trustworthy or adults are abusive, that I expect you to respond that same way.

Michelle L Maikoetter (48:54)

you don't yell at me when I do something wrong, guess what? It's a little bit of a stress response because it didn't go the way I thought it was gonna go. I know how to survive when you yell at me but I don't know how to survive when you don't. So then what happens? You know what happens.

Matt Darrah (48:56)

something wrong. Guess what? It's a bit of a stress response. Right. Because it didn't go the way I thought it was going to go. Right. And I know how to survive when you kneel on me. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (49:15)

I'm going to attempt something not again not at a conscious level right. Yes I'm trying to get to the familiar which is not the same for everybody. So my familiar feels safe.

Matt Darrah (49:17)

I'm trying to get you to yell. Right. Yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (49:29)

Your familiar feels safe and those can be two entirely different things. And so if I push and I push and I push and you finally yell at me. Okay.

Matt Darrah (49:30)

safe and those can be two entirely different things. Yeah. And so if I push and I push and I push, you're finally yelling at me.

Wow. Wow. Yeah, I've not thought about that. Yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (49:44)

We know what's going on here. We know how to survive this, right? And it's totally opposite. Yeah, it's totally opposite of what we think should happen,

right? But if you, for yourself, if you think about it in the opposite way, if you're used to people responding to you in a positive way, in a healthy way, and you walk into your room and no one greets you, nobody smiles at you, what's gonna happen? You're gonna be like.

Matt Darrah (49:58)

If you think about it in the opposite way, if you're used to people responding to you in a positive way, in a healthy way, and you walk into a room and no one greets you, nobody smiles at you, what's gonna happen? You're gonna be like,

what's going on? What is going on? So we understand it when it's that, but it's the same if I expect people to treat me a certain way, even if it has not been a positive way, a healthy way.

Michelle L Maikoetter (50:12)

Yeah, what is going on right? So we understand it when it's that but it's the same if I expect people to treat me a certain way even if it has not been a Positive way a healthy way and

you treat me differently It makes me uncomfortable

Matt Darrah (50:29)

Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, had not looked at it that way. That's such a, you know, and it's so contradictory to what we would assume that, you know, ⁓ you would think, and we talked, I've talked about this many times on the podcast, but you would, our normal or what we assume is normal,

is not this child's normal. so that automatically kind of gets you looking like what's going on. You get that stress level up just a little bit. though it is safe, everything's calm, everything's good to go, kiddos over here like something's off. Right, wow.

Michelle L Maikoetter (51:05)

Yes.

Yep. Yep. Even if you're doing everything

right. Right? I mean, that's thing is like, that's what's so confusing is people will say, you know, I said I loved you. I said, that's okay. I said all this. And then I had this big reaction. Right? Because you're not understanding that's not about you because it feels really personal. So we talk a lot about relationship and then all of that feels very personal.

Matt Darrah (51:23)

Yeah Right. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (51:43)

But, know, and I think Dr. Purvis says, you know, about how we're not battling the child, we're battling the child's history together, right? And so the history is coming into play in those moments,

but it's hard for us to take perspective how what's safe to me may not be safe to you. My safe should be your safe, right? And so, and I'm sure you've seen like things that we think are celebratory, so birthdays.

Matt Darrah (51:53)

But it's hard for us to take perspective ⁓ how what's safe to me may not be safe to you. My safe should be more safe. And I'm sure you've seen things that we think are celebratory, so birthdays,

Michelle L Maikoetter (52:09)

Christmas. All all these things that we'll put all this work into it and the kids will have meltdowns and we'll feel like they should have appreciated that effort. should have, know, all those kind of things, but it was so unfamiliar to them. It pushed them over

Matt Darrah (52:09)

Christmas. All these things that we'll put all this work into it and the kids will have meltdowns. And we'll feel like they should have appreciated that. They should have, all those kind of things. it was so unfamiliar to them, it pushed them

Michelle L Maikoetter (52:23)

the edge. It was too stressful. And so I've had kids who've never ordered off a menu in a restaurant before. And so you take them into a restaurant where they have to read the menu. They have to tell someone their order. They'll have a big behavioral incident in the restaurant to get out of the restaurant because it's

Matt Darrah (52:23)

Right. Right. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (52:39)

too much stress. And so then again we label it as you know willful defiance, they're not appreciative, all these kind of things without understanding what that's about.

Matt Darrah (52:52)

Yeah Yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (52:55)

And it really goes back to like having grace for one another, right? And having that default of like everybody's doing as well as they can do.

situation that they're in. And so when you see someone behaving badly and I do this even if I see something bad on the news or I see I'm like I wonder what is going on with that person that that pushed them to that point you know instead of gosh what a jerk. Now I'm not saying I don't always I don't

Matt Darrah (53:22)

I don't sometimes still do that. Even if somebody asks me to drafting and I'm like, I wonder what's going on with them today that this is such an irritant to them. That they can't handle it.

Michelle L Maikoetter (53:22)

sometimes still do that but even when somebody passes me driving I'm like I wonder what's going on with them today that this is such an irritant to them that they are you know can't handle it. Yeah.

Matt Darrah (53:32)

Yeah. Just trying to keep in mind. OK, let's do this. how are ways that we, because when Kiddo gets up

and arms and how do we stay, what are things that we can do to try to stay regulated? I know you said tagging out, but if I'm trying to stay in the moment and stay regulated to offer that, what can we do when we're not in that scenario to be able to stay in that moment and stay regulated longer?

Michelle L Maikoetter (54:13)

Yeah, you know, I think sometimes what helps me is I say what's happening instead of why is this happening? Because when I say why is this happening, I'm going to go to because I'm not a good parent, right? Because I didn't do something right or because this kid's, you know, he's doing on purpose driving me crazy. But what's happening here? What's happening here is we're overwhelmed, right? That's a totally different perspective to take.

Matt Darrah (54:14)

You know, I think sometimes what helps me is I say, what's happening? Instead of why is this happening? Because when I say why is this happening, I'm going to go to you.

Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (54:39)

And then to know, you know, whatever. And I know again, this sounds so simple, but deep breaths, like physiologically, we calm our system if we take some deep breaths. So even if I can't do anything else, I

can take deep breaths before I do anything. And then to have, if that thought process is available to us, what's happening? We're overwhelmed, we're stressed, we're dysregulated. What do we need to do?

Matt Darrah (54:53)

I can take deep breaths before I do anything. And then to have, if that thought process is available to us, what's happening?

Michelle L Maikoetter (55:07)

take some deep breaths.

Matt Darrah (55:07)

Take some deep breaths.

Michelle L Maikoetter (55:09)

rock, anything rhythmic. So if you think about again a baby and how we soothe babies. So that rhythmic repetitive patterned kind of activity, we sing to them, we rock them, we swaddle them, we hold them, all these kind of things that are rhythmic, repetitive and patterned. That's what helps us soothe the brain from the bottom to the top is

Matt Darrah (55:09)

Rock, anything rhythmic. So if you think about, again, a baby and how we soothe babies. So that rhythmic, repetitive patterned kind of activity, we sing to them, we rock them, we swaddle them, we hold them. All these kind of things that are rhythmic, repetitive, and patterned. That's what helps us soothe the brain from the bottom to the top.

Michelle L Maikoetter (55:31)

that that low brain or that lower brain activation that helps calm you down. So if you think about times you've been really

upset and you've had to go for a walk or you've had to do something. It was probably a rhythmic repetitive maybe you listen to music to help soothe you. can't always so we talk a lot about top down which would be the self-taught which would be me saying okay I need to calm down I need to take some deep breaths I need to this isn't that big of a deal. We can't always access that and so when we are so dysregulated that words and self you know calming isn't helping we've got to do these bottom-up activities and so instead of me trying to talk to you in some kind

Matt Darrah (55:41)

or you've had to do something, it was probably rhythmic and repetitive, you know, listening to music to help soothe it. can't always, so we talk a lot about the hop down, which would be the self-talk, which would be me saying, okay, I need to calm down, I to take some deep breaths, I need to, this isn't that big of a deal. We can't always access that. And so when you're so dysregulated that words and self, know, calming isn't helping, we've gotta do these bottom-up activities.

Instead of me trying to talk to you in some

Michelle L Maikoetter (56:09)

way, we're just going to go for a walk or we're just going to sit here and breathe together or we're going to sit side by side and rock. Like I love rocking chairs and those kind of things, but anything rhythmic, repetitive and patterned is going to help that lower brain get soothed so that then we can be more relational. So then we can be more cognitive or we can be more, you know,

Matt Darrah (56:09)

kind of logical way, we're just going to go for a walk. Or we're just going to sit here and breathe together. Or we're just going to sit side by side and rock. I love rocking chairs and those kind of things. anything rhythmic, repetitive, and patterned is going to help that lower brain get soothed so that then we can be more relational, so then we can be more cognitive, or we can be more, you know.

Michelle L Maikoetter (56:31)

thoughtful about what we're doing.

Matt Darrah (56:33)

Yeah, mm-hmm, that's good. I like the idea of you know Just like stopping for a minute and said hey, okay, let's go for a walk You know we don't have to talk we don't have to do anything. Let's just go for a walk Let's just or sit here and breathe or whatever it is Just not have to maybe not I don't have to deal with this specific

Michelle L Maikoetter (56:43)

Yeah.

Matt Darrah (56:58)

behavior situation right now, what I've gotta do is lower the energy and bring in that regulation however we can do it so that maybe in five minutes or 10 minutes we can talk about a consequence or whatever, but in the moment, let's do something to bring it down so that that upper part of the brain

can engage and say, okay, this is what happened and this is what we're gonna do about it and stuff like that. even just going for a walk, saying, hey, let's go for a walk. We're not gonna talk, we're just gonna go for a walk.

Michelle L Maikoetter (57:34)

Yeah, absolutely.

Great,

great. And that takes.

that takes some thought and some intention, right? To say, don't have to fix this right now in this moment. I need to be regulated. They need to be regulated. We need to catch our breath so that they can learn instead of feeling like I gotta do something right now that they're not. If you just think about for yourself, even just coming into a training, like when you came to hear me talk, if you were so stressed that morning, you had all this stuff going on in your personal life, in your professional life that you came in and you were pretty activated,

Matt Darrah (57:57)

Instead of feeling like I got to do something right now that they're not if you just think about for yourself even just coming into a training like when you came to hear me talk If you were so stressed that morning you had all this stuff going on in your personal life

Michelle L Maikoetter (58:15)

You

weren't going able listen to what I'm saying, to take in what I'm saying, to learn anything from what I'm saying because you've got too much other stuff that is taking priority. Right?

Matt Darrah (58:15)

You are going to able to listen to what you are going to listen to what I'm saying to take in what I'm saying. Yeah. Anything from what I'm saying, because you've got too much other stuff that is taking priority. Right. Right.

Michelle L Maikoetter (58:25)

And so the kids are the same way. They can't learn in that moment when they're so stressed, they're so dysregulated, they're so concerned about their safety or whatever's going on. And so it's like we understand that with ourselves, that when we go into a meeting and somebody wants to talk about something, you know,

Matt Darrah (58:26)

And so the kids are the same way. They can't learn in that moment when they're so stressed, they're so dysregulated, they're so concerned about their safety or whatever is going on. And so we understand that with ourselves that when we go into a meeting and somebody wants to talk about something, you know,

Michelle L Maikoetter (58:45)

so I had to be evacuated last week. I live out in the area that was evacuated from all fires and we were out for 48 hours.

Matt Darrah (58:45)

So I had to be evacuated last week. was I live out in the area that was. Oh, yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (58:52)

And so I was looking at my Facebook because that's where you get, you know, most of your information. It was the fire about two miles behind our house. And so on my Facebook was all my normal stuff. So recipes and exercise things and arts and this kind of stuff. And I was so irritated that that stuff was on there because I don't need any of that. Right.

Matt Darrah (58:52)

And so I was looking at my Facebook, because that's where you get most of your information. There was a fire about two miles behind our house. And so all my Facebook was all my normal stuff, so recipes and exercise things and arts and this kind of stuff. And I was so irritated that that stuff was on there. Because I don't need any I don't need that. Right now I need to what's going on.

That's right. But that's how we all get it, is like, if I am calm and relaxed and I

Michelle L Maikoetter (59:13)

That's right. But that's how we all get is like, if I am calm and relaxed and I can

flip through my Facebook and find those things entertaining or you know, but in that moment when I'm worried about my survival, none of that matters. And that's how we are too. So in the moment, you trying to talk to me or teach me something that is irrelevant to me is not going to have the impact that you want. It's inefficient. It's not going to have the impact that you want.

Matt Darrah (59:20)

And that's how we are too. in the moment you trying to talk to me or teach me something that is irrelevant to me. It's not going to have the impact that you, it's inefficient.

Michelle L Maikoetter (59:40)

And so the simple, and again, sounds simple, but isn't easy to say, let's just go for a walk. And sometimes, just like I was saying, when I've been in crisis situations,

Matt Darrah (59:40)

And so the simple, and again, it sounds simple, but isn't easy to say, let's just go for a walk. And sometimes, just like I was saying, when I've been in crisis situations,

Michelle L Maikoetter (59:50)

I've just gone in and sat down and breathed.

Matt Darrah (59:50)

I've just gone in and sat down and breathed.

Because words weren't going to do it. I've had kids that were super upset. They've been trying to deal with them for hours. They call me as a last resort. And then I go in and I sit down far away from them, side by side. And I take some deep breaths. And I remember this one boy was like, I've been there for about 10 minutes. And he goes, can I go to bed? They've been up for hours yelling and fighting with this kid. And I was like, ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (59:53)

because words weren't gonna do it. I've had kids that were super upset that people have been trying to deal with them for hours. They call me as a last resort because they don't know what else to do. And then I go in and I sit down, you know, far away from them, but side by side and I take some deep breaths. And I remember this one boy was like, I've been there for about 10 minutes and he goes, can I go to bed? They've been there for hours yelling and fighting with this kid. And I was like, absolutely.

But just not continuing to escalate and stress and overwhelm. So to be regulated. And then that next morning, same way when we've had kids who have run away, as soon as you find them is not the time to like, let's have this out. You're hungry, you're tired, you're dirty, you're all these different things. Let's get all those needs met. And then we can come back and talk about what happened. How did we get here? What can we do different next time?

Matt Darrah (1:00:20)

But just not continuing to escalate and stress and overwhelm. So to be regulated. And then that next morning, same way when we've had kids who have run away, as soon as you find them, it's not the time to like, let's have this. You're hungry, you're tired, you're dirty, you're all these different things. Let's get all those needs met. And then we can

Man, if we could just do this, if you could just get this in your mind and just do this ⁓ consistently, man, it would so benefit ourselves and the kiddos that are in our care. Just keep trying to stay in that a little bit longer and offer that regulation and then

know, then deal with that. It's really kind of ⁓ normal. That's not the right word. But it's opposite of what our normal response is.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:01:25)

Yeah, I mean it is.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, if you think about just like at work, if someone wanted to teach you something in the middle of a crisis, would that be the time to teach you? You know, I mean, no, right? Like we know, and I think Dan Siegel is one that says, you don't build a shed in the middle of a storm, right? It's like that doesn't make sense either. But again, we have these different expectations for kids. And then I think to know, because one of the things I talk about with parents too is that it doesn't mean you're going to be perfect. We're not asking you to be perfect.

Matt Darrah (1:01:34)

If someone wanted to teach you something in the middle of a crisis, would that be the time? You know what mean? right? And I think Dan Siegel's one that says, you don't build a shed in the middle of a storm. Right? It's like that doesn't make sense either. I feel we have these different expectations for kids. then I think to know, because one of things I talk about with parents, too, is that it doesn't mean you're going to be perfect. We're not asking you to be perfect.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:02:01)

But we are asking you to be human, right? So when we make those mistakes, and when we do yell, or we do the things that we wish that we didn't do, is that then I make repair, right? Because the strength is in the reparation. And so I can make mistakes as long as I go back and make the repair. The harm is when I make the mistakes and I don't repair, or I act like it didn't happen. And the thing is, is when you make those mistakes and you don't acknowledge it, everybody knows it happened.

Matt Darrah (1:02:01)

But we are asking you to be human, right? So when we make those mistakes and when we do yell, or we do the things that we wish that we didn't do, is that then I make repairs. Because the strength is in the reparation. So I can make mistakes as long as I go back and make the repair. The harm is when I make the mistakes and I don't repair them, or I act like it didn't happen. And the thing is, is when you make those mistakes and you don't acknowledge it, everybody knows it happened.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:02:30)

You know, we think if we don't acknowledge it, you won't know, but everybody knows. Right. And so even in the work that we did, was not asking staff to be perfect because the kids aren't going to be in a world that's perfect, but asking them to be human and that when we respond differently, because we're stressed, because we're overwhelmed, that we make repair. And we because we want the kid like, what do you want them to learn? You want them to learn how to make relational repair?

Matt Darrah (1:02:30)

You know, we think if we don't acknowledge it, you won't know, but everybody knows. Right. so even in the work that we did, was not asking staff to be perfect because the kids aren't going to be in a world that's perfect. They're asking them to be human. Yeah. And that when we respond differently because we're stressed, because we're overwhelmed, that we make repair. Because we want the kid, like, what do you want them to learn? Do you want them to learn how to make relational repair? Yeah.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:02:57)

And so if we don't ever model that, we

Matt Darrah (1:02:57)

And so if we don't ever model that.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:03:00)

don't teach them that, if they don't see that, they only hear us telling them to do that, they're not gonna experience it and they're not gonna learn it for themselves.

Matt Darrah (1:03:03)

Yeah, yeah

that that is such another big piece is the repair is I mean and you know, this is my wife

with my girls, you we'd have a blow up or whatever and I'd do something, whatever, she'd be like, you need to go apologize to them. And I was like, you were outside your mind. My mom never, my mom, it was not good, it was not healthy, was not beneficial. And then, you know, and I'm 45, now she's gone and she never owned the way that she treated us.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:03:30)

Yep.

Matt Darrah (1:03:44)

⁓ And so my wife's over here saying you need to go apologize and I'm like you are crazy. I'm I'm the adult I'm the parent I'm not gonna apologize, you know ⁓ but ⁓ but then you know realizing you're you're you're you're Teaching that humanity that you're gonna mess up and then you got to come back and fix it and you repair it that's that's such an important piece that I think a lot of a lot of us adults and parents don't they don't want they don't want to

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:03:48)

Yeah.

Matt Darrah (1:04:14)

do that. They don't want to say that I need to change or apologize for when I lose my mind or whatever. Yeah. ⁓

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:04:22)

Yeah, and it's the same thing as what you were saying earlier. If you're able to kind of grasp some of this, that I don't have to have the answer for every single situation. I have to be regulated and I have to help regulate, but I don't have to know how to do every single thing, right? There's

Matt Darrah (1:04:40)

There's some relief that comes with that. It's the same way when, and at my age, I have gotten to the point now when I make mistakes, not all the time, but I can say, I made a mistake, I'm sorry.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:04:40)

some relief that comes with that. It's the same way when, and at my age, I have gotten to the point now when I make mistakes, not all the time, but I can say I made a mistake and I'm sorry.

Right? And it's so freeing. Like I wish I could have learned this, you know, 40 years ago, but it, you know, I couldn't. And for the same reason, if you think now what it would have been like to have an adult in your life, say, I'm sorry, I made a mistake.

Matt Darrah (1:04:52)

And it's so freeing. I wish I could have learned this, know, a few years ago, but I couldn't. And for the same reason, if you think now, what it would have been like to have an adult in your life say, I'm sorry I made a mistake.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:05:07)

How powerful that would have been. How, ⁓ how impactful that would have been. And then if you've ever had someone in authority, so a boss or a leader that has taken responsibility, it is powerful.

Matt Darrah (1:05:09)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:05:21)

to experience that. And so for us to think that kids are going to learn just from our words, they're learning from their experiences with us, right? The actual experience of us with them.

Matt Darrah (1:05:33)

You ⁓ got to repair those relationships. Well, Michelle, I so appreciate just your wisdom and your experience and just being willing to come on here and talk to us about, try to understand a little bit more how the brain works, how it develops, then how these experiences influence what we're doing.

Now, that's ⁓ just powerful.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:06:04)

Yeah, well thank you. really enjoyed it and I'd be happy to talk again. It's just fun to talk to somebody else who has a passion for doing this kind of stuff.

Matt Darrah (1:06:07)

be happy to talk again. It's just fun to talk to somebody else who has a passion for doing this kind of thing.

My plates kind of full. I run this nonprofit, and I'm a dad and everything. But I love digging into this. It helps me with my past, my history. And then it helps me, hopefully, to be a better parent and stuff like that. And I just want to share that. And so I've thought like...

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:06:16)

I'm sure.

Matt Darrah (1:06:36)

maybe I should go back to school and be a counselor. don't know, I'm 45, it might be a little late, you know.

Michelle L Maikoetter (1:06:41)

It's never too late. It's never too late. But I'm not so sure you're not being a counselor, even if you don't have the degree for it. So I wouldn't be too worried about that.

Matt Darrah (1:06:49)

Yeah, well

Michelle, so, it's so, I really appreciate you coming on and just sharing and, you know, and really for the work that you did, that you've done. mean, you know, 18 years at Boys Ranch and I can't imagine the number of lives and kiddos that you've, that you've influenced through your work out there.

Well, very good. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Dr. Parker, for your sponsorship of our episode. Guys, be sure and like, subscribe, share, do all the things. We've got really important and valuable stuff that's on here. And we want more people to be able to.

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