Nature Vs Nurture and the Epigenetics of Trauma

Matt Darrah (00:01.102)

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Thank you to Hannah for coming back to us. Last week's episode was rough, rough but good. We're talking about trauma. This is such an important area for us to try to understand just even the smallest amount with. just remind everybody from last week who you are, what you do, and that kind of stuff. Yeah, so again, like he said, my name is Hannah Doggett. I have a...

Matt Darrah (02:24.236)

bachelors from the University of Missouri, Kansas City in psychology. did a master's at WT or West Texas A for those who might be listening who's not from the area and currently working on my PhD. It's a PhD in psychology, public policy and law. But throughout my research and throughout the years, I have really focused and specialized in trauma and or suicide.

In fact, my dissertation right now is very trauma focused, very timely given just everything going on. I work a lot with sexual assault survivors. You know, I've never been a foster parent, so I will say that. And I'll be honest, I don't necessarily have plans to either. So I'm really just here to talk about trauma and hopefully, you know, provide a lot of information. But then like we have on our notes also

Reminding you all that there's there's hope. Yeah, ultimately. There's definitely hope. Yeah, so a little disclaimer here guys. We said it last week We're gonna say it again at this point. We're planning on a five part series on trauma and While it might feel heavy and it might be perceived as hopeless It's not there is a reversibility of trauma And so our final episode is gonna be all focused on the fact that yes

Trauma sucks. It does. does. But there's hope. Because trauma can't, you can't make it go away, but you can reverse the effects, right? Yeah. You can't reverse what happened or what was done or even really forget about it per se. there, you know, I mentioned it. It's a really simple concept, but hope, I mentioned it last episode, that just hope in general can make a huge impact.

on anyone, but especially those who have a trauma history. Remind me, because you said something that I thought was really poignant last time about how hope kind of helps with the trauma. Can you remind us what you kind of... I can't remember exactly what you said, but I thought it was really good. Well, I don't know if I remember what I said either. Y'all might have to go back and watch the previous episode to get it. But generally speaking and...

Matt Darrah (04:47.598)

the University of Oklahoma or OU, Hook of Horns, they actually have an entire research center dedicated to researching hope. And so, and that doesn't just apply to trauma survivors, but it applies to every situation, every person, right? If they feel hopeless, that'll have a big impact. But hope in general, we see

can help to kind of reverse some of the effects of trauma. It really boils down to hope. There's a lot of more technicalities in there about the mechanism of how that that helps. And again, we'll get into that in the last episode. But just generally speaking, know, trauma doesn't define you. It's not your identity. And there is hope for a bright future. But there's a lot of factors that play into that.

Sure. So, today we're going to talk about, what we're doing with these episodes is busting myths. You know, last week we talked about the myth that trauma is just one big event. And then it can be. It can be. But it's not only one big event. It can be a series of those little t traumas that we talked about. so, our myth that we're wanting to bust

this week is nature or nurture. Are you automatically predisposed to having trauma or is it all about the environment and things like that? So that's kind of our conversation this week is that nature and nurture make us who we are and so it's not one or the other. It's not just the

the environment that you grow up in. It can also be just the genes that you have, right? Passed down and things like that. So kind of get into that for us. Let's start with the definition nature-nurture. Yeah. So like you said, it's nature and nurture. It's not or. And so nature is essentially our genetic makeup, right? It's what we're born with. You know, I was born actually a redhead.

Matt Darrah (07:12.314)

I have my hair turn blonde, but I have the freckles to prove I'm still ginger at heart and biological influences. Nurture is going to be the environment in which you're raised, you grow up in and what you're living. And so you have the nature aspect, which you have no control over, really. And then you have the nurture aspect, which as a kid, they may not have control over. As an adult, you have all of the control over the environment that you're in.

And so that's kind of the difference in my field in the world of psychology For a really long time it was it's either or right you're either it's either hopeless and it's all nature It's all your genetics or there's hope and it's nurture when in reality over the years and decades of studies It really comes down to it as both and yeah. Yeah, I remember a story in what happened to you where

this, I think it was the mom was terrified of dogs because the grandma was terrified of dogs because, and it back to slavery and the fact that dogs were used to hunt or to find slaves. And so, just the fact that the mom tensed up when there was a dog nearby because that's what her grandmother did, made the daughter scared of dogs.

and things like that. it is. There's trauma that happens and we have more ability to control it by what's around us, but there's also things genetically that maybe predispose us to some things. I think about a great example of the dog. I think about my, I have an irrational fear of spiders, 100%.

will scream and run away. And a lot of people make fun of me because they just don't expect it from me, I guess. And in my case, it is actually nature and nurture. My mom, my grandma, they all have this irrational fear. So maybe there's some genetic predisposition to arachnophobia. But at the same time, I live in Texas where there are...

Matt Darrah (09:31.629)

tarantulas that I've run across, hiking in the canyon. And I've had a couple of wolf spiders in my house lately, almost just decided to burn the house down. I came real close. And they're huge. so it's it, you know, when you're a kid and you see a Texas tarantula, you all Google that and be prepared. Those things are huge. So I had kind of also had a right to be scared of of. We also have all the really dangerous ones here, too.

So let's talk about the that it's both and it's it's nature and it's nurture. But let's just remind everybody, let's define trauma one more time. Yeah. Yeah. And I plan to do that for each episode, just kind of again, lay that foundation, then we'll build out from there in different directions. Scaffolding. I want to remind everyone I'm not using the

the definition from the DSM, right? We established last episode that that's not my favorite. The one that I really like if I'm having to systemically or objectively pick one is the one by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. And I'm gonna read it from my notes so I don't get it wrong, because I conceptually understand it, know it, but I don't have it memorized word for word.

So they say that trauma is any event or set of experiences or events that an individual perceives, which is again the key word, perception is everything, as physically or emotionally harmful and or life-threatening, and that has a lasting adverse effect on their functioning in mental, physical, social, emotional, and or spiritual areas of their well-being. So again, this definition just makes it clear that the impact of trauma

is neither time limited nor restricted to only some parts of an individual's experience. And so it could be, again, you're experiencing something over a long period of time or short bursts here and there. But those things can add up to. But it all goes back to how you're perceiving what's happening. Exactly. Yeah. The firemen and the kid in the fire we talked about last week where they're both experiencing the fire.

Matt Darrah (11:46.241)

the kid is five years old and is terrified and is afraid he's going to die, whereas the fireman deals with fires all the time, and he's protected and all the things. And so, the same event, two completely different responses to the event. So, it's the perception. The perception is what's key. And what even brought them there, you know? I just... I love the fireman example because it's like they're going in equipped with the skills and the training and the coping mechanisms to get through that.

The kid trapped in it who gets surprised, perception is going to be completely different of that fire, right? Whereas the fireman is like, it's a normal Tuesday at work. Yeah, right. Yeah, no big deal. Yeah. So, let's talk about the genetics of trauma, right? Can trauma be passed down? In short, yes. And...

You know, I'm going to rely on my notes just so everybody knows, because I want to make sure I'm giving you all the right names and dates for the research articles I'm going to cite. Absolutely. I'm really big on empirically based everything. Shout out to Dr. Hambrick and Dr. Kwan, who who taught me that way as as my mentors and advisors. But it can be passed down and that really gets us into epigenetics. And so what epigenetics.

essentially boils down to in this context is that trauma can change how a gene expresses itself. And it does that. There's something called methylation that happens in that process. so what occurs is that trauma exposure takes place, which leads to, again, alternations in the DNA methylation. And I'm not going to go in depth on what that is. But I don't want to.

I don't want people to feel like they're drinking from a fire hydrant, which it might already feel that way, it is a well-known process. Methylation is when it comes to epigenetics and then that in turn influences gene expression without necessarily changing the DNA sequence. So I think a lot of people, when they hear like, there's a genetic component to trauma, they're thinking...

Matt Darrah (13:59.609)

my gosh, something in the gene itself, right? Like something was taken out and replaced or just taken out altogether. When in reality, it's changing that methylation process and that leads to the gene expressing itself differently. So we're not talking brown hair, blonde hair. No. We're talking about how it's expressed. Right. So there are a lot of conditions in the world

I think of Huntington's disease, which is a neurodegenerative disease. You can only get it if it's genetically in your family. If your parent has it, you have a 50-50 chance of getting it. And I am not a specialist in that area, so I could be completely off. Feel free to correct me, Dr. Dubuete, if you're listening. But it really is that 50-50 chance if you get that gene.

And if you have it, you will 100 % get it. There is no off or on, right? So it's different in the case of trauma. There are other ways that are a little more subjective. So think of resilience, right? That's generally seen as something that's more trait-based, more stable across your lifetime. Trauma can change how maybe those genes related to resilience.

express themselves. So you could be more resilient or less. And that's actually what the research has found. And so that inheritance of trauma, again, is not hopeless. It doesn't mean that you're going to be less resilient and that you're going to be predisposed to post-traumatic stress disorder or all of these mental health issues. You could actually mean the opposite. And so it and that's where environment can come into play. So there's the nature and then you've got the nurture.

The nurture is ultimately what can kind of, you know, turn a gene on or off at times. Okay. then we've got transgenerational trauma. Yeah. So this is also known as intergenerational. And so the research, and we'll get into this. I'll go ahead and start to talk about it. The first conference ever I went to in undergrad was at the International Society for Traumatic Stress Studies.

Matt Darrah (16:22.606)

I was an undergrad and very grateful for the just mentorship that I had. My mentor, Dr. Hambrick, had helped me get to a place in my research where I actually got to present at that conference. But while I was there, of course, I'm to go attend other people's presentations too and try and be a sponge and soak it all in. this is that that conference was the first time ever I'd really heard about transgenerational or intergenerational trauma.

And this is essentially trauma that is inherited in a way. It refers to the impact of traumatic events experienced by one generation. So your parents, your parents' parents or grandparents, and then how that affects subsequent generations. So your kids and their kids and on down the line.

even if they did not directly experience that trauma, right? And so real world studies, this is where I'm gonna get a little bit more in the nerdy, so nerd alert time, the nerdy side of me, the researcher, and I'll give you all names. You can actually go and Google these studies and read more about them. So when I attended that conference, again, these are some of the studies that I had learned about related to this.

and I've thought about them frequently since. Bower 1996, so that's what you would Google if you're wanting to look it up, name is spelled B-O-W-E-R, found that nearly 30 % of children of Holocaust survivors experienced PTSD symptoms. So keep in mind, these are children who did not go through the Holocaust, right? 30 % experienced PTSD.

over their lifetime compared to the control group, was 0%. Wow. So you've got a control group and you've got the experimental group and neither one experienced the Holocaust. But the kids of those who survived it had a 30 % over the course of their lifetime, 30 % of that population experienced PTSD. Wow. And so again, that just leads into the fact that there is a genetic aspect to trauma.

Matt Darrah (18:41.422)

Yehuda et al. I hope I pronounced that right. In 1998, found that survivors of Holocaust offsprings were diagnosed with PTSD, typically reported to be related to Holocaust thoughts or images as their primary traumas. Again, they did not experience, you know, the Holocaust.

So that's also where the environment then comes in because grandpa might be talking about his experience or grandma, whatever the case may be. Right. So there could still be some exposure secondary. They didn't directly experience it, but maybe indirectly they're hearing some things about it and that can still be traumatic for them. I'll go ahead and name these other two studies. I'm not, you know, super in depth again. This is just so the listeners can look them up if they really want to. Fogelman of 1998.

found that children of survivors had problems with communication and identity conflicts, and then more, 1990 found higher frequency of separation anxiety and guilt in children of survivors of Holocaust than in your, you know, essentially control populations. And this was, I mean, we're talking 50 years. Yeah, so I pulled older studies specifically to show, because I can pull recent ones as well, and in fact, the practices when you're

you're doing research, you want to find studies that are done within the last five to seven years normally. I'm pulling older ones specifically to show that this has been known for a long time and just not really talked about. Yeah, but these studies were done 50 years after. Yeah. And so you're at least talking one generation of separation, if not two.

And I could be wrong, I would have to go back and double-check it, but I believe one study I read said that the epigenetic aspect of trauma they found up to three generations after. So, there's something about that going into the fourth generation where something changes. Yeah, and I'm a believer and I see, you know, I stop and think about where it talks about sin being carried out to the third and the fourth generation.

Matt Darrah (21:00.506)

And that was a long time ago. And so, I think that in my brain kind of reinforces the fact that the Bible kind of knew what they were talking about, and here we are kind of proving it to an extent, right? Yeah, we don't really use the word prove in social sciences, but yeah, you're right.

For those who don't know correlation does not equal causation. have a friend that actually got that tattooed on her arm because she believes it so strongly. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So the other aspect, the other things that I learned about. these will be newer studies was related to 9-11. Yeah. So Holocaust, 9-11, Vietnam, at that conference, were the three big.

events that I heard researchers talk about this aspect of epigenetics of trauma and how it can be inherited. so research on children or women who were pregnant and or widowed while in New York City. That's the key part. So they were there during 9-11. BBL 2020. So we're looking at a recent study. So this is just five years ago.

documented heightened maternal and infant efforts at engagement with each other in 9-11 versus the control groups. So what that means is essentially they had difficulty tolerating moments of looking away or being separated compared to control groups. Yeah. so even in their interpersonal interactions, there's differences in how trauma can impact them. the parent and the child, or across the board.

Parent and child specifically. Yeah, that study specifically is looking at mother and baby. they're so worried. Because of this happening, there's such a heightened hypervigilance over something happening to the child. Am I understanding that correctly? That can be part of it. In general, just comes down to, again, how genes express themselves. And we'll talk about it a little bit, but that, especially when we're talking about parents and kids,

Matt Darrah (23:13.664)

attachment styles. Right. So what happens, what you experience can impact what type of attachment style you have with your parent. And so in this study, part of that is essentially saying like trauma impacts the interpersonal aspects of relationships, too. So they often found that they were working too hard to make it work. It's almost like they were they were trying to make the relationship and that that connection.

They were working harder at it than parents who were in the control group and kids in the control group. What do you mean? They were just trying harder to stay together as a couple or to parent? Yeah, so there was a hypervigilance, high arousal because of the trauma. And so you have more of this and it kind of gets into the anxious attachment style of...

If mom's not in the room, kid's gonna get upset a lot faster and be looking around to see where's mom at? Where's my anchor point at? And also just trying to maintain a positive relationship. They were working harder at it. It's like they felt like they needed to put more effort towards it. Again, I was not that researcher, so I don't know.

all of the ins and outs. I've read that study. It's been a couple of years since I have. I'll probably have to reread it for the dissertation. So that was one of the 9-11 ones. And across other studies with the 9-11 events, we just see these patterns in context. Some of them might be adaptive. So you've got a mom who experienced 9-11.

kiddo didn't experience it or maybe she was pregnant at the time. And some of those skills like the working harder at a relationship could be adaptive, right? Some parents are really the hands off type, but in this situation, mean, could be pros and cons to everything, right? That's the CBT training in me, the cognitive behavioral. There's always a pro and a con. So just

Matt Darrah (25:36.033)

some of those changes that we see as a result of trauma. There's the epigenetic, which can be passed down. see that in the Holocaust survivors and their kiddos. And then you have the nurture aspect, which is environment. It changes both. So again, it's not a which one is it, is it nature or nurture? It is nature and nurture and trauma impacts both of them. Wow. Let's see. OK. So.

Trauma is not written in the DNA, but the way we respond to those inputs, whatever the input is. The way the genes express themselves, essentially, yes. So it's not like there's a trauma DNA that you can, you know, a strand of it that you can go in and turn off or turn on, you know, when you talk about genetics and things like that.

I'm not a biologist or anything, but you can go in and actually turn genes on or off in some situations. This is not the case. It's not like there's a gene they can go in and it's labeled trauma and they can turn it off, right? It changes how genes, other genes, express themselves. So again, it's not actually changing that DNA strand, right? Everybody knows about the double helix. Yeah, the double helix and that little spiral. It's not changing that. It's just changing how things express themselves. So would that mean maybe they

their body would put out more cortisol or something like that? Is that? So, there's a joke within my field that anytime somebody asks a question, the answer's always the same. The answer is it depends. Yeah. So, in every situation, an answer to your question, it depends. It genuinely does. It depends on...

the environment that person's growing up in. It depends on some of their past other genetic predispositions. It depends on everything. It could depend in part on their diet, right? We know that diet or vitamin deficiency has an impact on mental health too. So yes. Yeah, it depends. that's why, number one, it's why it's super important to be learning all the time. But it also kind of helps us to realize that

Matt Darrah (27:56.579)

Golly, there's so much out there and we need to do our best to understand what, if we can go back to that again, what happened to you and how we respond to it and really try to figure out how do we help, how do we move forward and how do we really understand what's going on. Yeah. And again, like trying to provide some hope throughout these episodes given the heavy content and everything, but

You know, over all of the studies, and again, I didn't even bring up the one related to the Vietnam veterans and their offspring. But over a lot of these studies that looks at that transmission of trauma or trauma being inherited, there's evidence that supports that it could increase resilience or that it could increase one's predisposition to struggling with their mental health. So again, it could go either way.

it's changing how something, a gene is expressing itself at the end of the day. And if you're more resilient, that gene, if you're naturally, genetically, if you're more resilient, and then you grow up in a positive environment, more than likely, that's just gonna increase your resilience as well. Right. So. Right.

So, let's talk a little bit about early child experiences and kind of the attachment theory, the role of nurture, environment, parenting, culture, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so I don't think we talk about culture as much as we should, to be honest. You know, I think everybody thinks of culture as...

The US is here and China and Russia. Those are all different cultures. But we also have our subcultures and many cultures too. Like each individual family could be considered its own small culture. But when it comes to early childhood experiences and attachment theory, so just real quick, there are different attachment styles four primary ones that are recognized. And I'm not, again, going to go into all of these in detail.

Matt Darrah (30:13.31)

You all, I'd encourage you to really look into them because it can help you understand your kids a little bit better. They're secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. So those are the four main ones. Attachment theory is a psychological framework that really explains how, and this goes back to early childhood experiences, how that child is going to bond with caregivers.

And that bond ultimately shapes our relationships, our emotional development throughout our life. So it's not just how do you attach to your caregiver. It's also what's your attachment style towards your partner, towards your friends, towards potentially even coworkers, right? Are you anxious with your boss or do you feel secure with your boss? And so that's what it comes down to.

So those early childhood experiences, if you grew up in a home that is unstable, that you experience neglect, if you experience abuse, the chances of you having a secure attachment style, probably not very high. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, know, we, one of the things that I learned at some point, I don't, can't remember if it was from Robin's book or from a seminar or something like that, but it talked about how

the parent holding the child and making eye contact creates pathways in the brain for the ability to connect. And then, you know, if that didn't happen, that even a 15-year-old would actually benefit from holding them and doing eye contact because that would create those pathways in the brain that weren't there because

And don't know the science behind it all. I just know that if this happens, you have the road, really, maybe, to have cars come down it. But if you don't have this, the cars can't come across. But then if you come back and do it later, cars can go. You're essentially talking about the neuro sequential model of therapeutics. That's basically what that is.

Matt Darrah (32:37.354)

Again, I'm not an expert in NMT. I've read a lot on it, but I haven't been clinically trained in it. everybody take that with you know what it is. And you can you can Google that and get a lot of information. He's got a lot of stuff on Dr. Bruce Perry on on his sites. And there's a lot of research out there. But that that's a lot of what that model looks like is, you know, if when the brainstem is developing.

the input that's needed, if it's not provided, we're going to see this cascading effect too on all of the other areas of the brain. Right? And so going back and providing an infant with what they needed and maybe didn't get would have a positive impact on everything else too. And so that's really a simplified version and I could be missing some marks on it. Again, I'm not clinically trained in NMT. I understand most of it conceptually.

And I would actually love to see it adapted for adults, right? Right now it's just for kids. And I think there could be benefits in even using it for adults who experience trauma as kids. Right? Do want to hold me? Let me call your wife real quick and I'll say, hey, Nikki Matt needs to be held tonight. I need some NMT. Just stare directly into his soul for 15 minutes. Yeah, I'll find somebody to write that prescription for sure.

That would be a helpful one. so we've got the four attachments, and then, so those experiences in childhood influence your attachment and kind of reinforce. We've got the nature side over here. We've got the nurture side. So let me ask this question. It's not on here, but...

Let's say that there's a chemical use in utero. Is that nurture? Is that nature? Is that both? Yes. It depends. It depends. Yes, it depends. I would tend to say it's going to be both because there is a genetic component to substance use disorder. We know it as a disease. There is a genetic predisposition of those who have parents

Matt Darrah (34:56.78)

with substance use disorder, they are predisposed to struggling as well. Parents, kids of alcoholics, a lot of them tend to tend to be alcoholics. Yes. Right. So there's there is a genetic component. We know that from research. But also think about the nature component of if you grow up watching your parent come home every night after work and get drunk and that's how they deal with life. They're they're

teaching their kid how to quote-unquote cope. It's mal... I would argue it's pretty maladaptive. Yeah, it's not helpful. And so it really... Yeah, it depends. I hate to say it, but it's right. You're right, it depends. So I'm going to make a point of distinction here that I'm interested to know if you know anything about. Again, I'm not following our notes. He's going off script, stressing me out. That being said...

One of the things that Robyn Gobbel talked about, and I cannot, for the love of me at the moment, remember the person that she follows on that. But what she says repeatedly on her podcast, her book, in the club and things, is that no behavior is maladaptive. The behavior makes sense. It's not a good behavior, but that it does make sense when you take into consideration

what they've been through. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense. I think that comes down to semantics on how somebody is maybe perceiving the concept of something being adaptive versus maladaptive. You know, in grad school for my masters, I had a professor who said behavior is lawful. And what that essentially means is...

everything you do is predictable. And he broke it down and I kind of had an existential crisis for a little bit there. I don't think Dr. Bird knows this, but yeah, I kind of kind of spiraled a little bit because I was thinking about it and he's not necessarily wrong. Yeah. Right. So like, I mean, I'm a fairly predictable person to begin with because I like my routine and whatnot. But even

Matt Darrah (37:23.63)

deciding how I'm going to get home after this, the direction I'm going to take is predictable. Not necessarily because I drive it all the time, but you could think about traffic or whatever. So he is taking away free agency there. That's why I had the existential crisis. Yeah. Takes away the idea of free will and autonomy. But for the most part, yeah, it's learned behaviors and the things that we've seen and been taught over the course of our life.

Leads us to make X decision at this at whatever time and so Yeah, it gets back to you again your answer it just all depends Which I know is not the best or most In depth but again, that's kind of a joke in the field. The answer to all of it is it depends That's why I mean that's treatment there's no prescribed the like you

this is going to work if you do that. If you try this, it's going to work, or that's not going to work, or whatever, because everybody's experience is like we talked about when we're defining trauma, that it's perceived and therefore...

how they are going to respond to CBT versus EMDR and all the different things. It's, who knows? Because everybody's different. Everyone's different. Yeah, for me, for example, EMDR would never work. Never, because I know the science behind it and I'm not going to ruin it for anybody because my clinical training is if it works for somebody, it works for them. Who am I to tell them I'm not?

I mean, I'm not trained in it, so I wouldn't be able to offer it, but who am I to tell them they shouldn't do it if it is working for them? Right? We could get into the whole placebo effect thing, even if it is a placebo effect, if it's working, it's working. So, yeah, it gets down to so personally, you know, I struggle with migraines and I have a couple other friends who really deal with them too.

Matt Darrah (39:29.228)

And we've talked a lot about what works for us for treating them and being able to get rid of them when we have one. Every single one of us have a different process and have different ways of getting rid of them or different medications. Like one person's on one preventative that I tried that I had horrible side effects to. And then vice versa. What I take to help.

She had bad side effects too. So it is not a one size fits all for any of this. You know, I can give you all the research in the world, but at the end of the day, the social sciences is about finding the relationships between things, not trying to prove this will cure PTSD for everyone, right?

that that's just never going happen. There's too much variability. That would be awesome. It would be the first time anybody gets a Nobel Prize in psychology, The first time ever. And I would love to be alive for that day, but that's just not our reality right now. Okay. Okay. So let's talk about trauma transmission through the nurture, right? Yes. So this is getting down to the nurture. So we talked about the nature side of it. So epigenetics, how genes express themselves.

And this is getting into how trauma can be inherited through nurture as well. So again, it sounds kind of bad because you're like, dang, well, it came at me genetically and now you're telling me it can come at me in my environment too. Like, again, where is the hope? And there is hope. But this really goes into, you know, I talked last episode at the very end and I'll probably say it again.

A lot of this starts with self-awareness. being aware of how you're approaching your kids, your friends, your family, all of that impacts the relationship and can impact how they perceive you, how they perceive the situation. so trauma transmission can happen through behavior, language, even silence and family dynamics. So for any listener, for this podcast or in any other situation, think about how are you responding?

Matt Darrah (41:40.323)

Right. We talk about react versus respond a lot. Right. As adults, we should have enough emotion regulation that if we feel ourselves about to react, to take a deep breath, think a little bit, you know, let our emotional side calm down and then try and respond properly, especially to kiddos. So parents who have not processed their trauma again. So getting back to self-awareness, you've got to know if you've processed it or not. It doesn't get rid of the trauma that happened. It may not even get rid of

post-traumatic stress disorder if you have it or the symptoms of it. But being aware means that you can be mindful of your behaviors around your kids, right? So you're not gonna go get blind drunk in front of your kids. Hopefully. Hopefully. That's not the most positive behavior. Overprotectiveness, aggression, those are all negative behaviors that could potentially come about if you haven't dealt with what you personally went through.

Children are sponges. Yeah, I don't have kids. I have one nephew and I have gotten calls Because Jimmy said this yes I've gotten my sister was like you're never gonna guess what Grayson said she tells me and I'm like My bad. Yeah, that is my fault. Yeah

You know send him home and he knows all the bad words. Yeah, right. remember okay, so my oldest was three and I say what the hell a lot, right and so He he goes to He goes to the fridge he opens the door and he goes what the hell? Yeah, exactly that is me to a tee like my god, he got that from me there's no there's no

Yeah, there's no question where you got that one from yes, I gotta call one time about about my nephew and I Spend as much time with him as I can of course school and work really take a lot of my time But I was told that he told a teacher I do what I want And he was at the age where the concept of sarcasm and sass that abstract aspect

Matt Darrah (44:05.144)

He didn't quite get it, right? And I say that all the time, right? Like I've had people, like friends or whatever. And for example, like my tattoo artist, she'd be like, OK, I need you to move this way. I'd just be sassy and be like, I do what I want. You can't tell me what to do. Well, my nephew picked up on that. Started saying it. I think he was like three or four at the time. And so again, it's that self-awareness and your behaviors. They're sponges. They're going to internalize things, right?

And you may not even realize it until it's too late sometimes. Right. It was too late when I got that call saying your nephew just told so and so that he can do what he wants and not, you know, I profusely apologize. And they thought it was funny because they knew it was my fault. there's sponges. Yeah, guys, we're not making light. These are some funny examples of things that the kids have done. But the point is.

Kids are sponges and they're gonna do what they see. Yeah, so I I grew up in a... not the safest home, to be honest. And my sister and I have talked about this at length because she and I have very different perceptions of our childhood. I mean, there's a good age gap too, so that makes an impact.

And the way we've perceived things, very different, but we've had really great conversations as adults at this point. And she and I both have had long talks about how do we break these cycles for Grayson, or for my nephew, right? Like, do we break the cycles? And it comes down to us ultimately changing our behaviors or the way we're thinking, the way we're responding or reacting. You know, there is a time that

that my nephew is over at my house and I've got lightsabers. I'm a huge Star Wars nerd for those who don't know. And I think last session you couldn't even see my Star Wars half sleeve, but love Star Wars. I've got lightsabers that are impact. They have the ability to actually fight with them. And so we were in my living room fighting with them and he just barely tapped the ceiling fan above him, right? Barely moved it, but he hit it.

Matt Darrah (46:26.062)

And he looked at me and I could see the fear in his eyes. Like he immediately started to shut down because he was so used to... And it's really just grandparents immediately having that reaction of yelling and essentially saying like, you're not being careful, you're being careless. And it's like, he's being a kid and he's playing.

You know, I stopped and I was like, buddy, it's totally OK. Nothing broke. If it did break, I can replace the ceiling fan. It's fine. then I realized we are kind of close to the 65 inch TV. So maybe let's move into the dining room where there's less things to break. Right. But I could see his face immediately change because he had internalized so much about if he makes one wrong mistake, right, that shutting down and just that internalization of of not being able to do things right.

And so that stuff again my sister and I have talked about How do we break cycles on his behalf and so he can have a childhood that maybe was different from ours for sure So we got behavior. Yeah language is the next one. Yeah Again, this can also be used in a family to reflect underlying trauma, right? The way you talk about things again, they're sponges So they see what you do and they're gonna hear what you do. Yep, right

My nephew knows all of the bad words, but my sister and I, in fact with me, he knows it's all about intention. Everybody has their own beliefs around using cuss words and I'll respect them. When he's at my house, if his intention is not to try and hurt somebody by calling them, like I told him, you call him stupid or you call him

Pardon my language, a dumbass. To me, your intention is still to hurt that person and neither one are okay. Yeah. Right. But if you stub your toe, actually research shows cussing can help to alleviate the pain. No way. I'm going to tell my wife. Yes. Yes. Go home and tell her. Not only has research found a correlation between it helping to alleviate pain, physical and emotional, but people with higher IQs tend to cuss more. Really? Yeah. Again, I'm not going to use the word proof. It's just a correlation.

Matt Darrah (48:45.218)

Right? So, can't wait to let my wife hear this. She's gonna, she's gonna hate me for this. You told my husband he can say all the words he wants. But yes, like saying dang it when you stub your toe was not as effective as saying damn it. Really? And helping to... That's bizarre. How do they test that? Hit him on the foot?

I'd have to go just keep running into the wall. That would be great. You know what? Let me look that up. Yeah. Let's what that actual research and they experimented that because that that would be great. I would love to know that. It's the same with like listening to hardcore metal music, which is my favorite. A lot of people think people who listen to that are more aggressive or more angry. They actually found the opposite. Those people who listen to that.

get their area. Have a correlation of being more regulated and also having a higher intelligence. Wow. So, That's insane. Just a rabbit trail, I could go on that all day long. But, behavior and language really go hand in hand. Yeah. Because how you act in front of your kid, you're also going to be talking to them. So how you talk to them, your tone of voice combined with eye contact or lack thereof. Right? Are you standing and towering over them?

Or are you getting to their level to talk and have that conversation? So, for example, a parent who experienced neglect might really struggle with emotional availability because they didn't have that emotional connection when they were younger, which could lead to the suppression of emotions with like just invalidating it.

well, that's just your perception. And that's not reality. That's not valid. And, know, I know somebody who is over and over tried to have conversations with their parents about like, just feel like a burden and that I feel like you love me for what I am and all my degrees and accolades and not just loving me for me. And that gets back to the fact that their behavior as well as their language.

Matt Darrah (50:54.334)

showed them over the course of their life that that was the case. So it's not all you can say, I love you all day long. But if your behavior does not reflect the unconditional love, they will not believe you. Yeah. Period. again, it's hand in hand on the opposite side of language. We have silence, the silent treatment. my gosh. How how effective that can be when when needed.

But for kids, it's just not the best, right? Talking about trauma, talking about anything negative is not comfortable. No. Nobody likes that, right? Nobody wants to sit down and have a conversation about, I don't like how you did this. This really hurt me. Nobody wants to have that conversation. But having that is actually more beneficial than the silence of it, because then there's the...

one person might feel invalidated in their feelings. So that kid may feel like they're ignoring me because I'm feeling these emotions or they're ignoring me because they don't love me. that's like have conversations with your kids. That's the biggest thing. Get comfortable, you know, with, for example, I'll use my nephew again as another one. My sister and I both

believed in teaching him the anatomically correct terms for body parts. Because time and time research has shown that it helps actually to keep them safe. If they know their correct terms. My parents are of the generation of we're going to make up nicknames for him. And you know, my mom would use like, it's his business. I'm like, but that can be

that could be taken the wrong way. Anyway, there was a tangent, but creating silence can be really deeply unsettling for that kid, especially when there's been some sort of conflict. So getting comfortable with those hard conversations, teaching kids terms that maybe, again, my parents are of the generation, they don't want to use anatomically correct terms. You just have to get past the awkwardness and be okay talking.

Matt Darrah (53:14.804)

It doesn't mean that it's not okay to have some silence, though. I mean, you know, we're not talking about never letting there be quiet, never letting there be time for reflection, but not weaponizing it, kind of, right? Yeah, because when I think about, like, I gave them the cold shoulder, the intention there, and I think it gets back to intention, the intention there is I'm...

I'm ignoring them and I want them to feel that. Versus what you said, reflection. The intention there is I'm going to take some time to sit with what I'm feeling, with what I'm thinking, to maybe down regulate a little bit if I'm overly activated. And so that silence can be beneficial. But it's when we see it, like you said, weaponized. I really like how you put that weaponizing silence, just like you could weaponize your behavior. Right.

So that's another way that trauma can be kind of passed on. The last one I want to get into, and then we'll start to kind of wrap things up a little bit, is family dynamics, which that's just everything, especially I think in foster settings. Unresolved trauma can really impact family familial connections. So connections with parents, with siblings.

communication, emotional regulation, relation dynamics. know, one kid might favor one parent over the other. All of those dynamics can really impact kids. So for an example, a parent who might have experienced loss could struggle with emotional connection, which then leaves their child feeling unsupported. So we're not trying to blame the parent in that situation. You know, when a parent goes through a trauma,

It should be acknowledged too, but it goes back to that self-awareness and take an initiative to process it so the family dynamic doesn't drastically change and that trauma get passed down. Man.

Matt Darrah (55:25.774)

Talk for a minute, if we can, about the family dynamic of...

And we may not even have the space and the ability to kind of get into it at the moment. But the family dynamic of, know, this kid's been through it and now we're bringing them to us. And, you know, that whole dynamic changes drastically. And so we have to learn.

how to modify the family dynamic too, right? I mean, that gets back to a lot of what we're talking about, but we have to acknowledge that things are different and we have to figure out how to work through it and modify, not only when families bring kids in, we have to modify our family dynamic across the board.

you know, let's just say we've got mom and dad have two bio kids and they each have traumas and we have to modify our family dynamic so that we don't pass on, right? But then we also have, you know, whole other ball of wax when we've got two folks and they've got some bio kids and then they bring in some kids that have some traumas and things like that. And so the family dynamic changes. It does. And so...

And that's why I feel like it's so important for us to really... I'm not saying that every foster parent or kinship family or adoptive family needs to have a doctorate degree in psychology, but we have to understand trauma and how to help the kids overcome it and understanding...

Matt Darrah (57:24.16)

and busting these myths, I feel like helps fix, or not fix, but overcome and move past the family dynamics, right? Yeah, so with family dynamics, I think about your situation. You had bio kids before you brought in foster children, but your kids were still in the home from what it sounds like. The first time. Yeah, I think it starts with...

having that safety and trust built with your biological children and open communication, feeling like they can come to you at any point in time. I think it's also important to involve them in the process in some form or fashion, because if they're afraid of such a big change, then you might be bringing in a foster kiddo who has their own trauma.

and now your biological child is struggling too. So it's really, it starts with kind of everybody being on board. Everybody being on the same page, that open communication. You know, I grew up in a family that was, you never question authority, right? Kids should be seen and not heard. You know what my dad always told us? Your mother is never wrong. If she says that grass is purple, it's purple. Yeah, no.

I can't tell you the number of times I heard that. Hundreds, thousands of times. I heard that growing up. Yeah, I always heard the happy wife, happy life. I would get told, you know, if you don't stop crying, I'll give you a reason to cry. I'm the mom, that's why. Like when I would ask a question or because I said so. You all those things to me communicated. I can't have.

conversation, open conversation or communication. don't get a voice. Yeah, I don't get a voice in any of this. How I feel, what I'm doing doesn't matter. And the times that personally I tried to communicate it, they ended up invalidated of like, that's just how you perceive it. That's not reality when perception is reality at the end of the day. And so the family dynamics start with the family, your family prior to fostering. Right. And then bringing in

Matt Darrah (59:45.827)

Because when you bring in a foster child, you're really just bringing in a box of unknowns. Yeah. Right. So you might know a little bit age, their gender, maybe a little bit of their background, but like you don't have their case file and you're not them. And this is the first time meeting them potentially. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that dynamic is immediately going to change as soon as they come into the home. And I would argue even a little bit before that anticipation of window they're coming. Yeah.

And so having that open communication, having a foundation previously established, and then being able to regularly check in with everyone in the family, right? Because that dynamic will continue to shift. And at the end of the day, parents, is... So it's my belief that every child has the unalienable right to being protected and feeling safe. And it is a parent's job.

And it's even my job as an adult and as a mental health professional to do everything I can to make sure that right is protected for kids. And it's hard when the dynamic changes and something happens that seems to to go against that that makes a kid feel maybe that they're unsafe and and dealing with because I would never say it's the parents fault. Right. They're they're

They're trying to help a kid. again, you're bringing in a bunch of unknowns, doing the best that you can. But it's stepping in because it's not if something bad happens or if something goes wrong or if somebody gets mad, it's when. And then being able to address it. Right. That will continue to change and shift family dynamics and could even it will even communicate to the foster child of here are the boundaries. Right.

A lot of them might be coming from places where they're used to no boundaries and getting to do whatever they want. Suddenly being faced with lot of boundaries and rules that are meant to keep them safe and help them, to them is going to feel bad. Even though it might be helping. Right. Yeah. So. Let me talk for a second about... So, my girls were traumatized when the kids left the first time. And...

Matt Darrah (01:02:11.822)

And we all knew. Right, we talk about the recidivism rate in prison. We measure the recidivism rate in foster care, right? And so in the panhandle the 26 counties, so the likelihood of a child coming into care, going back to the bio-family, what's the chance they're coming back? It's half. Oh my gosh, I didn't know that. Within five years. Half.

the kids that go into care, go back to bio-family and go back. How often do they come back? Half. And so when the kids left the first time, and it's a whole long story and I don't want to share too much of their story, but it was a sudden thing and it was not a good situation. And my girls were teenagers at the time and it was traumatic to them, right?

I mean, it was traumatic to my wife and I. For them, it was as hard or harder to deal with that. so, family dynamic is just so, important. And like you say here, unresolved trauma can impact family dynamic. And I mean, I know that that is, that my traumas and Nikki's traumas,

have influenced and impacted our family, and honestly in both ways. In beneficial ways, I am never going to do that. But then also, I might do that. And it's as a result of my history. you know, we're not saying you have to be perfectly, completely healthy to foster.

no, because nobody could foster at that point. Yeah, I about to say, would argue everybody's got their issue. Everybody's got their issues. But we have to we have to attempt to be aware and working through our own traumas so that we can help kids deal with their traumas. Yeah, I really think it could be boiled down to emotional intelligence. high emotional intelligence does not mean that you never get angry.

Matt Darrah (01:04:38.124)

or you never get upset. It means that you're aware of your emotions and how it might impact or your ability to even apologize when you mess up. Right. I grew up in a family that I don't I think to this day I've never heard my parents genuinely apologize to me about X, Y and Z. Right. I could I could give you a list of things.

Instead, it's more of like the guilt trip type thing of like, well, I did everything I could. Whatever. Yeah. We could go down that rabbit hole all day long. And I feel like a lot of people have that same history. But. And I've done that with my nephew because I remember one time I just I was getting overstimulated and I got really upset and I didn't yell. I just kind of raised my voice and I know he's sensitive to loud noises. He has been since he had

what is it like foot hand mouth disease or something that all the kids get. and it since then he seemed to be more sensitive to loud noises and I raised my voice a little bit at him and I could tell he got kind of scared and started to shut down.

And when things calmed a little bit after about five minutes or so, was like, buddy, you know, I'm really sorry. And I even went through the process of telling him, if an adult is being unkind to you, you get to tell them that that's not nice. you can not that they're going to apologize, but you should always expect an apology from someone who does wrong to you. We grew up in the same thing. My parents never, never did admit.

let alone apologize for the things that they did. And so when the girls were young, my wife would be like, you need to apologize. I'm like, I'm a parent. I don't apologize. it became abundantly clear that we make mistakes. We're humans. And we have to repair that relationship when we mess it up. Yeah. And it teaches them that too.

Matt Darrah (01:06:54.786)

Like you're in turn teaching them emotional intelligence. That's something I had to learn as an adult. Because I grew up in a military family where unless you're happy or angry, every other emotion is invalid and shouldn't be happening. And I came to a point where I just realized actually stifling my emotions is more harmful in every situation. Every situation. We're human. It's OK to have emotions. Yeah.

Okay, so let's talk about the impact, we'll try to wrap up here, the impact of community socioeconomic status and exposure to violence. What are we talking about here? Yeah, so that's just talking more about the transmission of trauma. That's just a kind of another area you could think about. Those in that lower SES, which stands for socioeconomic status. Let's think about some of the ways that maybe

they are predisposed to struggling with their mental health. Okay, so take away the nature aspect genetics. Let's take away even the exposure to violence growing up in a rough neighborhood. If you're in a lower SES status, so low income household, what are the chances that you could pay for therapy? are the chances? Yeah, yeah. What are the chances that you are able to eat, you know, balanced meal even?

or just get the supports that you need. They're pretty slim, right? And so that transmission of trauma is made even harder when parents who are low income may be very aware that they've experienced trauma and it could be impacting the family, but their access to support, they just don't have them. You know, with community, there's the need to belong theory that really

I would argue, again, I don't like to use the word prove, but that whole theory, it's well validated and reliable. It really just essentially says that humans are not meant to live alone. And so if you feel like you don't belong in your family, like a foster child doesn't belong, if they feel that, if they perceive it, no matter how often you tell them that they're wanted and they have worth.

Matt Darrah (01:09:18.222)

that perception is going to impact them. And then we've got exposure to violence that in and of itself is obviously traumatic. In fact, in the new DSM, and again, I'm not a huge fan of the DSM, but one of the things they changed is with trauma exposure, they actually put in there, I believe it's age five or six. If a child is that age or younger, exposure to

things like violent video games and violent movies is considered traumatic. And so it's also being mindful of not just where the kid comes from, but what are they being exposed to right now as well? And is that possibly causing genes to express themselves differently or a transmission of trauma in some way?

Okay, so let's briefly touch on the reversibility of trauma because we're going to have a whole episode on it. So keep, stay tuned, come back every week. We're going to talk more and more about trauma, but there is hope. There is reversibility of trauma. Which is why I put this in here. Again, we're just going to touch on it briefly, but there's something called neuroplasticity, which is your brain's ability to essentially repair itself or bounce back, right?

There's neuronal death, so where neurons die off, but there's also neuronal growth. Which they used to say that didn't happen. They didn't think that that happened. I remember, I think it was in high school, middle school, or maybe, I don't know, elementary, but they told us you have the X number of brain cells and you'll never have any more. I got told in elementary school if you hit your head you lose two brain cells.

And I was like, my God. And I didn't know how many I had to start with. The amount of times I bang my head in school against my desk or the wall, I would not be able to finish school at this point because I wouldn't have any brain cells left. But there's something called neuroplasticity, which goes into the hope of it. The brain has the ability to rewire itself. There are studies.

Matt Darrah (01:11:25.262)

of infants who have what are called hemispheric demes. So an entire half of their brain is removed. And now if you're 65, this isn't going to work the same because neuroplasticity decreases the older you get. early in infancy, and it's most common in severe seizure cases where they remove half the brain, that child, there are cases where the children have gone on to live completely normal, healthy lives.

It does not go back. OK. They generally go through like occupational therapy, physical therapy, speech therapy. They have a lot of support that are given to them. And the brain is able to compensate and rewire itself so that the other half controls the entire body and all of our systems. Now, again, that's not going to work the same as if you're 65. Yeah, sure. But think about stroke victims, people who have had them and been paralyzed on one side.

The best thing for you to do is to force yourself to use the paralyzed leg or arm or foot. the brain, even if one part dies off, it can start to rewire itself. So especially in kids, they have more neuroplasticity than we do as adults. So if you're giving them a loving, encouraging, supportive environment, the brain can start to rewire the way it thinks and works.

So that's where some of that hope comes in. And then that goes straight into some of those therapeutic interventions, which if you look up the NMT model, that's what they're taking advantage of at the end of the day is neuroplasticity. They're acknowledging that the brain needs to rewire X, Y, and Z, right? So you've got CBT, helps with that, family therapy. Cognitive behavioral therapy. sorry. CBT. Yes, CBT.

And then just a number of other therapies that can help with that rewiring. But NMT for kiddos is probably my top favorite if I had to rank therapies. Community healing and cultural resilience. That is part of it as well. So the neuroplasticity, you can think of that as kind of nature. Right. So that's your brain. I can't go in and physically.

Matt Darrah (01:13:52.139)

rewire something in my brain, right? It's going to do that on its own, hopefully. And then you have nurture, which is the community. If you live in a supportive community, not just your family, but you have people and friends, teachers, whatever the case may be, that can help, again, to rewire your brain and help you to bounce back and be more resilient in the face of stress or traumas, big or little t.

And then I want to talk a little bit about the importance of awareness and storytelling, especially storytelling. Research has found that individuals who tell their story become it's almost like exposure therapy. Yeah. It doesn't again, it doesn't make that story any less valid or any less impactful. you essentially get desensitized to it to a point where you're not as reactive or activated.

when facing it. it's, in fact, when I taught freshmen in our class on emotions, I talk about how naming the emotion actually takes away some of its power. So saying, I am really grieved right now after you lose someone starts to take away some of its power. That doesn't mean you're less grieved, but maybe you have less of a physiological response or you're just able to process it more. Yeah, I watched that video.

social media somewhere and it was talking about how we say, have anxiety instead saying, I am anxious about this. Yes. I don't think it's I mentioned it at some point in one of my set of notes, but yes, I'll go ahead and mention it now and we'll probably say it again, especially with Dr. Hambrick. She really drilled into me. So my undergrad advisor

for everything to be person-centered. instead of saying he's autistic, you'd say he's on the spectrum for autism. So focusing on the person rather than the label. In fact, that's probably the episode it's on, is talking about labels and dealing with them and diagnoses. But yes, that's exactly it. Instead of saying,

Matt Darrah (01:16:12.044)

you know, that sexual assault survivor, it could be a person who experienced sexual assault, or is that foster kid or that child who is in foster care. Exactly. So it's changing it to be more person-centered, which is really beneficial. it's just that storytelling and goes back to the importance of awareness. Wow. OK, so key points. Trauma is complex, but it's not nature.

or nurture its nature and nurture. And I'll die on that hill. If anybody calls in and wanted or messages you and wants to argue about it, I will die on that hill that it is both and. It's not either or. I know there are still people in the field who would argue it's one or the other. I think that number is decreasing significantly, but I firmly believe it's both and.

Because think about it this way, if it's only nature, there's no hope. No hope. There's no hope. I mean, if you're born with X, there's no hope. Like, give up, right? I mean, if you can't heal from and overcome and learn to deal with trauma because you were born this way,

Do whatever you want. Yeah, you're just going to succumb essentially to your trauma and let it control you. that really goes into like I try and put an empowering message there. Yeah, I like it. At the end of each episode. And for this one, it's going to be that your biology is not your destiny. Yeah. It can dictate a lot, right? Like it's going to dictate your eye color, your hair color, your height, you know, your even your ability to put on muscle mass or whatever.

But it's not your destiny and ultimately not your identity where trauma is concerned and that healing is possible. It might take a long time. You might be in therapy for years and that is perfectly okay. In fact, people like myself and yourself who are constantly exposed to traumatic situations, I would argue, should see a therapist regularly anyway. Just a self-care.

Matt Darrah (01:18:37.614)

But yeah, biology is not your destiny. So nature is not the only thing. You have your environment and the people around you. Healing is possible. Healing is possible. Trauma is reversible. We're going to talk about that. I can't wait for that episode. But...

nature and nurture. It's both. And you can overcome both. Right? Yes. And so, reflect. Think about your stories. Think about what you've been through. Think about what the kids that are in your care are going through. And seek help. Seek help, okay? Because it is possible to learn to overcome. And if you as the parent

take that step as well to go to therapy, to deal with your trauma. Like, what does that show to the kids too, right? So I grew up in a home where therapy for my parents that I don't think ever happened. In fact, the only time I remember one of my parents going to therapy was actually simply because my sister was going too. And so my mom would meet with the therapist afterwards, I think really just to discuss what was going on.

And I remember I was talking to one of my parents and had mentioned that concept of emotional intelligence and the ability to sit with people and not invalidate their feelings or emotions. And I mentioned like therapy could actually be helpful for that. And the response I got was, well, I don't think therapy works.

And my response back was very reactive. And I said, it's good to know that you think my entire life's work is garbage. Yeah. Because that's what I've dedicated my life to. And I've poured thousands of dollars into my education to understand human behavior. And I genuinely believe, if you as the parent take that step, it will make the kids more comfortable in having conversations about their mental health and seeking help,

Matt Darrah (01:20:52.91)

I 100 % I talk to my kids like you should be trying to deal with it now not waiting until you're in your 40s like I am right that neuroplasticity is better and you're easy it's easy I don't know easier is the right way but you are more able to rewrite your story in your teens than you are in your 40s so yeah

Guys, like and share, subscribe to All Things Foster. We're here. We want to get this message out. And we can't do that without you guys getting out there and saying, hey, you need to check out this podcast. We're digging into serious big stuff and it's helpful. we, you know, we're not here just blowing smoke, just to have something to do. We're doing this because we feel like it's valuable and it's important.

And if people don't know that it's here, then nobody's going to know. So thank you. Please like, share, and subscribe. Hannah, thanks for coming on. A brief reminder, Panhandle Orphan Care Network exists. Our main thing is placement packages. Last year, we did 80, which is about 600 kids come into care in the 26 counties of the Panhandle

in a given year. we did 80, which was the most we'd ever done, which we were excited about. But we've done 60 so far this year, and we're not even halfway through the year yet. Our goal, 125-ish for the year. We can't do it by ourselves. We need folks to help. We need volunteers to run placement packages. And I will tell you, I love

delivering those placement packages because those kids, I mean, they just love it. It communicates to them value and love. We're not just taking stuff. It's so much more than just some pajamas for them to sleep in tonight. You talk about that community and the impact of having support mechanism. It speaks value to the child and to the parents. We're telling them,

Matt Darrah (01:23:16.052)

We're here for you. We see you. We value you. You are important. We even had coins made that say, am valuable and loved, so that they can carry that coin around in their pocket as just that daily reminder. Every time they put their hand in their pocket and they feel that coin, I am loved and valued. I am loved and valued. So yes, we're bringing stuff, but it's a lot more than just bringing stuff. So we can't do that without

the community around us supporting, encouraging, and building up us. We need placement package partners. $100 a month buys all the clothes for one placement package. $50 a month buys a case of diapers a month. $10 a month gives us one outfit to give out each month. so guys, if you're interested, go to our website, panhandleorphan.org slash donate.

Set up that monthly donation if you're interested in volunteering hit us up Thanks for joining us come in. Hopefully you'll be able to join us next week as we dig into What are we digging into next week? Diagnoses labels and living beyond them Yeah, and I'll tell you from personal experience two years ago when I was diagnosed with complex PTSD it hit hard

We're going to talk about it more next week, but it did. It hit me hard. And so we're going to talk about the diagnosis, the label, and kind how we can overcome the label and not identify that that's who I am. am not... Help me say it right, because I don't even know. I am not a PTSD person or whatever. I am a person overcoming... Who struggles with it and...

And ultimately, it just gives you information about yourself. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you guys next week. Thanks again so much to my BNI chapter, Lone Star Leaders. They've been super supportive of us throughout this since I've joined the chapters. So if you're interested in a referrals group to help build your business, hit us up. Thanks, and we'll see you next week.