Honest Adoption: Ethical Practice, Connection, and Hope with Donna Pope

Matthew Darrah (00:01.344)

Right. Okay. Hello and welcome to All Things Foster, a place for coffee, connection, and community. Thank you for joining us today. Grab your coffee and let's dive in. Before we get to Donna, who's our guest today, our episode this week of All Things Foster is sponsored by Amarillo National Bank. We are incredibly grateful for Amarillo National Bank's generous support through a major grant that allows POCN

to continue providing placement packages to children entering foster care throughout the 26 counties of the Panhandle. Their commitment ensures that every child receives essential items like clothing, car seats, diapers, and comfort items right when they're needed most. Amarillo National Bank continues to lead the way in strengthening families and uplifting our community, and we are honored to partner with them. And so yeah, guys, we got a pretty substantial grant from them a few weeks ago, and so we're super thankful.

for their support. just in case, if you don't know, we do a placement package when kiddos come to a family, whether it's through foster care, kinship placement, and those kinds of things. And so we're there, each placement package costs about $430. They get a suitcase, Bible, a teddy bear, a book, a toy, and a blanket. And then other than that, it's whatever they need. So it could be clothes and diapers and car seats and just so many things. And so...

We've done 144 of those this year covering the 26 counties, which to put that in perspective, that's the size of West Virginia. So we cover a pretty big area. so Amarillo National Bank's grant is just helping us continue to grow that program and things like that. So anyways, back to what we're here for today. Donna Pope, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast here today.

Donna Pope (01:46.266)

Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. And I'm fascinated by what you're talking about. What an amazing thing. So how did that get started? And I don't want to take over the interview, but how did that get started?

Matthew Darrah (01:57.174)

No, yeah, it's fine. Well, so we have three kids that came to us through a kinship placement. And so they're 13, 16, and 18 now. But when the older two came at one point, and we had them for a year, but during that year, we just really didn't have any support. And so they ended up going back with the bio mom. And then two years later, we get a call to take them back, plus the new baby sister.

And we said, yes. Well, at that point, just people just started bringing us stuff. I had a daughter married and one getting married. We didn't have anything for a two, four and six year old. And so these people just started bringing us stuff. And so I really felt like God was saying, this is what we should be doing. And so I came up with this idea of the placing package and started a nonprofit in 2017 and ran it.

while working full time until June of 2024 when I finally was able to step away from my job and get to do this full time. So that's where the idea came from. People just brought us stuff and it was like, man, this is so helpful. And so yeah, so we didn't know what the heck we were doing starting a nonprofit, we've been kind of, yeah, we were kind of figuring it out as we go. Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Pope (03:16.277)

I that's how all of us do everything. We just figure it out as we go along.

Matthew Darrah (03:24.632)

You see a need and you're like, I think I can help fix this need or fix this need too. So anyway, so tell us, you're with Heart to Heart Adoptions, right? And for how long?

Donna Pope (03:29.563)

sure.

Donna Pope (03:36.915)

Correct. Correct.

Well, like your story, I saw a need and created it. actually, my sister was adopting children because she couldn't have children. And in the process of kind of trying to help her a little bit, I started housing birth moms, not for her actually, I'd been doing that for a while. So birth moms, an agency came to me and said, can you house these birth moms?

and I had an extra room and so they would come and stay with me during the time that they were pregnant. So I started to get to know these women really well. I could tell you all kinds of stories. I remember one woman, she would go out on the balcony and she'd be out there just talking away and she'd be smoking and talking and I'd go out and look to see who she was talking to and the neighbors down below would complain, she's yelling at us. And then I began to realize

Matthew Darrah (04:12.717)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (04:19.373)

down.

Donna Pope (04:37.031)

She's not talking to anybody we see. She was talking to somebody, she was diagnosed eventually as schizophrenia and she would have these wonderful conversations with this person that we couldn't see. And I asked her, said, do you see somebody or do you feel somebody there? And she goes, I don't see them, but I sense their presence there. And this was like her best friend. So I...

Matthew Darrah (04:40.472)

Mmm.

Donna Pope (05:04.409)

got to know sort of the idiosyncrasies of these women. Well, one of the things that I noticed that was problematic to me was kind of the disrespect that was shown by the adoption community. And that bothered me a lot. So we started an agency with the idea of giving birth moms a respectful, loving, you know, experience.

Now, is it hard for women? Oh, yes, it's very hard. But there is something to feeling valued. And so that's kind of what we've been doing. And so I started it about 27 years ago, 1998, and we've been going since that time.

Matthew Darrah (05:33.751)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (05:42.742)

Yeah, alright.

Matthew Darrah (05:49.688)

Wow. Wow. And so, and you guys, you guys do domestic adoptions. Do you know roughly how many y'all have done in the last 27 years? Wow.

Donna Pope (06:02.044)

About 2000, about 2000. So, and then we're also starting a new project, which I'd love for you to get involved in as well. And this is what we call adoptions.com. It's with an S, there was an adoption.com and now it's, and what it is, is it's a network for all adoption services. So there's basically four primary clients in adoption. There's adoptive families, there are

Matthew Darrah (06:15.682)

Mm.

Matthew Darrah (06:25.111)

Mmm.

Donna Pope (06:31.379)

birth moms, there's adoptees, and then there's waiting children. And those waiting children are mostly in foster care, but they could be in other places too. And so we're going to invite people to come in as a primary client, and then we're going to have adoption service providers, such as adoption agencies, lawyers, therapists, foster care, social workers.

Matthew Darrah (06:52.12)

you

Donna Pope (06:58.025)

anybody that provides services to any of those primary clients. And they're going to come in, they'll make their profile. If they're a business, they might want to make a page. If they're an adoptive family, they'll want to make their parent profile. And then people will be able to talk with each other. There'll be a community feeling sort of like Facebook. They'll also be the opportunity to create your own private groups. And those groups can be

Matthew Darrah (07:02.688)

Interesting.

Matthew Darrah (07:18.572)

Mm. Mm.

Donna Pope (07:26.323)

public or they can be private and then they can be monitored where before the comment goes out, it's approved first in cases where that's needed. That's not always needed, but in cases where it's needed that might be. And then we're going to have a connection engine where based upon what people are needing and then what other people are providing, we'll do some sort of connecting them together and then allowing them to get to know each other. So

Matthew Darrah (07:47.746)

Mm.

Hello.

Donna Pope (07:53.993)

And that we hope to get that preliminarily launched in the first of the year.

Matthew Darrah (08:02.124)

That's cool. Yeah, that's, you know, that's one of the biggest issues that I talk with families about all the time is they don't, they don't feel, they feel alone. They feel like nobody understands what in the world they're going through. And, you know, there's comments that sometimes you just want to choke somebody. was, we were, it was Mother's Day, which is a hard day.

Donna Pope (08:28.169)

It is a hard day.

Matthew Darrah (08:31.108)

and we were at church and one of the kiddos did not want to have, they were taking pictures and he didn't really want to be in the pictures. And so the pastor's wife is like, hey, you should just be glad you have a mom who wants to take your picture.

Donna Pope (08:40.553)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (08:49.272)

I almost lost it in the middle of this church. And I to have a meeting with the pastor. mean, like, dude, listen, like, you can't say that, you know? And so, yeah, so we do. You feel just isolated. And so having that place to have a community focus, that's part of the reason for the podcast, is a place for community, right?

Donna Pope (09:12.713)

For sure. Absolutely.

Matthew Darrah (09:15.234)

healthy connection in community. We do better, and I say this all the time, but we do better in community. And so just being around and hearing from other people that are walking the walk, that have lived it, it's just so beneficial.

Donna Pope (09:33.118)

It's so needed because people don't understand and if they've not been through it, but that's the way it is in every aspect of our life.

Matthew Darrah (09:42.434)

Sure, yeah. I don't have a clue what it's like to raise a kid with autism. I mean, I have a best friend who had twin autistic boys, but I haven't raised kids with autism, so I don't understand it. And so, you know, I mean, I understand this much. They were three, and we had put the parents up in a hotel for the night, just to them a break. And we were walking the boys to the park, and on the way to the park, we were gonna stop at the car.

Donna Pope (09:53.097)

All right. All right.

Matthew Darrah (10:12.28)

just to get bottles of water. And they knew how to get to the park. And so taking 10 steps off the path to stop and get some water out of the car was a no. So I was like, okay, you go get the water. We're gonna keep walking, you know, and stuff like that. But yeah, we didn't, we've not raised kids with autism. I can't speak to that. And so yeah, that's, but anyways, so back to, so.

What is your kind of philosophy surrounding adoption, right? Because like you said, there is a stigmatism around moms that choose to have their kiddos adopted. How do you deal? How do you work through that? Because this is a hard thing.

Donna Pope (11:04.423)

Yeah, no, for sure. And if I would have put it in two words, it would be self-determination. That would be my two words. Because the idea is, okay, first of all, for a woman to get to the point where she's wanting to place her child for adoption, some pretty challenging things have had to happen to her in her life. And we can all imagine them.

Matthew Darrah (11:11.425)

Mmm.

Donna Pope (11:32.583)

probably anything we can imagine has happened and more. So they've gotten to a place where they're really often very vulnerable and they don't see other options or other choices for them to make. And so they really do have three options. They have the option to parent this child, they have the option to abort this child in some situations, and they have the option to do an adoption.

Matthew Darrah (11:36.717)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (12:01.929)

Of those three, all of them are painful. All of them are challenging. Adoption is especially challenging. It's especially challenging because you're now going to choose to let this life live inside of you and grow inside of you and go through all of the things that you have to go through in a pregnancy. And then you're going to have to deliver this child, which either will come out vaginal or a C-section.

and neither of them are very comfortable. So you're going to go through all of that and then you're going to take this child and hold it and love it and want it. And all of the emotions that come with motherhood and parenting are going to rise and then you're going to hand it to somebody else. That is really a big thing. And so

Matthew Darrah (12:32.333)

Mm.

Matthew Darrah (12:55.64)

Mm.

Donna Pope (12:58.341)

honoring the fact that these women are willing to choose to do that is really an important thing. And then to recognize that after they do that, they're going to go through the natural normal feelings of anger, wanting to undo it, immense grief, loss, before they eventually come to a point where they can

Matthew Darrah (13:17.848)

Hmm.

Donna Pope (13:28.365)

feel okay. And honestly, there are some women that never get to the point where they feel okay about what they've chosen to do. And so one of the challenges for all of us in the adoption to community is to try to help put a purpose to it. Now, sometimes it's difficult to go to that place of there is a purpose for why I did what I did. And but that purpose can't come.

if there's a sense of victimhood, meaning I was a victim. And many of these women very much are victims. They're victims from their circumstances, they're victims from their family, they're victims from drugs, they're victims from lack of education. There's lots of victim things. The challenge is when they go through that feelings of victim and they don't feel that there was a purpose to why they went through what they did, it makes the...

grieving process even more challenging. going back to my two words of self-determination, making sure that we give these women the options and then the resources and the freedom to determine themselves what they're going to do then allows them both to go through it and then to go through it with purpose and to go through it and heal from it later on feeling like

Matthew Darrah (14:29.4)

Sure.

Donna Pope (14:55.907)

I made that decision. I chose to do it. And I did make that decision based upon these reasons. And now I feel okay about it because even though it's painful, even though I hurt, even though I feel the loss, I feel okay about it. And then giving them the follow-up, the ability to see that, yeah, the child's happy, the parents love them. It's a good thing. It turned out okay.

give them the opportunity to see the consequences of their choices and that those consequences turned out good is also an important part of that.

Matthew Darrah (15:33.048)

Right.

Yeah. you're a pretty big proponent of an open adoption when it's appropriate.

Donna Pope (15:43.421)

Well, I'm a big proponent and sometimes people call it a semi-open adoption. We have created a software and it's going to go into this adoptions.com software that we're creating, but we call it Hearts Connect. And what it is, is it's a way of them going into a group that the adoptive family, the birth mother, and eventually the adoptee himself or herself could be in where they can communicate back and forth.

Matthew Darrah (15:58.52)

Mm.

Donna Pope (16:11.717)

easily and where also it can be monitored. It could be monitored if needed. Now some people don't need monitorization and some people do, but also the monitorization helps to keep the counselor involved in it and can step in when needed. So I'm a very big proponent of having that as an option out there. So our adoptive families come in with the agreement that that's what they're going to do.

Matthew Darrah (16:15.448)

Mm.

Matthew Darrah (16:36.013)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (16:40.879)

they're going to go ahead and post in it whether or not the birth mother chooses to look. And what's one of the funnest parts about it is that birth moms will often not and adoptive families will say, will she even just like the post? And they may not even want to like it. But we have a way of being able to see that they come in and see it. And even if they don't comment and they don't like it or anything, push the like.

you can tell that they care and they watched and it matters to them that they can see how their child's doing. Now whether or not that goes beyond and they get a relationship that's a direct relationship, that's up to them. Or whether or not they have visitations and that type of stuff, that's also up to them. But we start with that, what we consider the minimum requirements for adoptive families to pose.

Matthew Darrah (17:17.868)

Wow.

Donna Pope (17:37.233)

And then where the relationship grows to from there, it is up to them.

Matthew Darrah (17:41.944)

Yeah, mean, you know, going back to the stigma, mean, there, there, you know, so many, okay, so there's an there's an, an agency here that places that it's for aftercare for young women, right? So they've been in foster care, they've aged out, so they, they stay in care. And, and so there's housing, there's helping with school and that kind of stuff. But

Donna Pope (17:59.689)

sure.

Matthew Darrah (18:12.408)

a percentage of them end up pregnant and then their kiddos are in foster care. so this is a, we're dealing with generational struggles, generational consequences. so, I mean, we did a placement package for, she was 14 and so she was placed with the foster family, but her daughter was also placed with the child.

Donna Pope (18:39.721)

So the foster family adopted her and her daughter? Wow.

Matthew Darrah (18:40.984)

And so with the fart.

Matthew Darrah (18:46.744)

Right. Well, it was foster. I don't know what the outcome was. But yeah, the foster daughter was there. And then the foster daughter's daughter was both with this foster family. so anyways, what I'm getting at is we tend to have this super negative opinion of moms that are going through this. the reality is they're struggling.

Donna Pope (18:49.737)

foster care. Yeah, so it was foster. Okay.

Matthew Darrah (19:16.51)

at an event, we'd gone and had an event and then we were having lunch afterwards. It was a little town, so everybody knew everybody kind of thing. And one of the people that was participating in some of the stuff that we were doing up there was really kind of hating on these moms that have their kids in care. And our waitress knew the guy and she was like, hey, listen.

My kids were in care for five years. I was spending $400 a week on heroin, and it took me five years to get clean and to get my kids back. And so, you know, really kind of shocked him to say, oh my gosh, you know, I mean, so we do, we have to have compassion for the moms as much for the moms as for the kids.

Donna Pope (20:07.567)

sure. And we also have to have compassion for the adoptive families because adoptive families come into these situations and they've come from their own struggles. Now usually they're in a different situation in life, usually they're more financially stable, they're usually more educated, and they have options that birth parents don't. And that's why they're in a position to adopt. But they also bring their own struggles, they bring their own disappointments, their own loss, and then they also bring

Matthew Darrah (20:12.365)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (20:22.466)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (20:27.244)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (20:37.001)

their commitment. Their commitment to adopt a child that sometimes is drug related, is sometimes has these additional problems. There will be attachment issues. There'll be all of these other and they're going to take that child into their life and they're going to love that child and care for them. And then they're going to learn how to navigate the relationships between them and the biological family. And some of those are

Matthew Darrah (20:39.244)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (21:03.372)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (21:04.777)

that brings in a whole other element into your life. will often, people have asked me, well, should I do this? Meaning should I adopt this child? And my response generally is only if you want your life to change. If you are perfectly happy with your life how it is, then don't. But if you want your life to change, if you want your heart to grow, if you want your...

Matthew Darrah (21:21.986)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (21:26.455)

Right.

Donna Pope (21:32.293)

existence to be more full, more rich, and much more challenging. Do this.

Matthew Darrah (21:37.624)

Yeah, yeah. Well, you're hitting on that. Let's talk about the attachment issue, right? You know, I'll tell another story. I was at a men's breakfast and we were going around the table talking, who needed prayers, whatever. And one of the guys mentions this couple that had just brought in a three month old little girl into their home and she wasn't sleeping. And she wasn't sleeping.

Donna Pope (22:03.219)

And she what ? Oh I see.

Matthew Darrah (22:05.784)

And so he was asking for prayer for this family. And one of the guys pops off and he's like, well, yeah, she's a three month old. They don't sleep. I, again, I'm like, listen, look, dude, like, this is not your three month old daughter that you've, you know, that your wife carried and then, you you've had her and she's been here. Like, this is, I tell people, it's like dropping a kid, dropping you.

Donna Pope (22:15.817)

you

Matthew Darrah (22:32.542)

in the middle of the Amazon jungle naked. nothing is familiar. Right, right, like come on. I mean, you know, there's this thought that, and it blows my mind that it's still the thought out there that these babies come as a blank slate and they just, they don't know anything. And they're just now they're in this safe and stable and loving home. And so everything should be good. And it's like,

Donna Pope (22:36.862)

and wonder why are you crying?

Matthew Darrah (23:03.224)

Didn't work like that.

Donna Pope (23:04.38)

Yeah. So let me ask you. So I often hear that there's trauma that goes with adoption. And I love your analogy of dropping a child in the middle of the Amazon and everything so foreign to them. Now, granted, hopefully someone will care for them and cuddle them and help them move forward. But there is a feeling of exposed fear, trauma. So

Matthew Darrah (23:32.045)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (23:35.271)

So why do it?

Matthew Darrah (23:36.564)

Right. Well, I do it. So because somebody has to. Because these kiddos, they deserve to be safe and stable and loved. Right. I mean, they just do. I mentioned and we're going to talk later, I was adopted and and you know, we we approach things as parents with the mindset like we're like

our home is not gonna be like that, right? Because when we were adopted, mean, my mom would turn to my dad and say, you know, I'm sorry I ever made you adopt these boys. If I could go back and do it again, I wouldn't, you know, in front of us, right? And so we approached it from the perspective of that is not, there was not such a thing as unconditional love in our home growing up. And so our like kind of driving force is,

they're gonna know that they're valued and loved, like, period. Like, that's, there is unconditional love in this home. And, you know, something like 400,000 kids in foster care across the country, they deserve to be valued and loved. 400,000, yeah.

Donna Pope (24:52.957)

So I want you to repeat that number again. 400,000, almost half a million kids are in foster care and do not feel like they have a permanent home.

Matthew Darrah (25:01.174)

Yeah, in foster care. Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Darrah (25:07.66)

Yeah, yeah, that's just the ones that are, yeah, just in foster care. In Texas, there's over 6,000 kids in foster care that are ready and willing and waiting to be adopted.

Matthew Darrah (25:23.896)

It's mind-boggling.

Donna Pope (25:25.927)

That is mind boggling. What are their ages?

Matthew Darrah (25:28.856)

Yeah. I mean, they're, you know, all the way birthed, all the way up to 18. Of course, a big, big chunk of them are teenagers, right? I mean, you know, a lot of people do not want to adopt teenagers because they have, they've been in, you know, they've been in care for 10 years and they've had 30 placements. We had a girl on that had aged out of foster care and it was one of our first episodes.

and she lost count, just in her high school time, she had between 50 and 60 placements.

Donna Pope (26:08.041)

That is crazy.

Matthew Darrah (26:09.898)

Right. 50 and 60 placements in four years. So she aged out of foster care, got pregnant, went and hooked up with her biomom. Her biomom had not.

She was not in a good place. And so they got into it and her biomom kicked her out of the car in Lubbock pregnant and she had nobody else in Lubbock. She knew nobody else. And so she ended up connecting friend of a friend to that aftercare place for the young women that I mentioned a little bit ago. But yeah, 50 to 60 placements in high school.

Donna Pope (26:26.857)

Thank you.

Donna Pope (26:53.029)

And there's often the statement made, there's no unwanted children, there's just unfound families. I hope, my dream, I suppose my dream in connection with adoptions.com in bringing in these adoptive families is that they would come in and they would...

get connected with resources that could help them be prepared to take on some of these children. that, because we know that there are thousands of families out there, if they had the appropriate education, if they had the knowledge, they have the room, they have the room in their house, they have the room in their hearts, and they're willing to take on some of these kids.

Matthew Darrah (27:39.768)

Mm.

Donna Pope (27:50.35)

We just need to get them together.

Matthew Darrah (27:52.089)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just, it's so hard. These babies, deserve, they deserve to be valued and loved and have a safe, stable place. And so that's, you know, that's a big part of what we try to do is raise awareness. Hey, there's a ton of kids out there that just need somebody to love them, you know? And yeah, it's gonna be hard. You talk about trauma, man, it's tough.

Donna Pope (28:18.569)

And so we go back to the whole idea of adoption of a newborn and we're getting a lot of flack about that right now across the nation about, well, this is trauma for these women. Yeah, it is. Or this is trauma for the adoptee. Yeah, it is. So what's the alternative? And so the alternative is either the woman

Matthew Darrah (28:40.984)

Exactly. Yeah.

Donna Pope (28:49.041)

you know, is able for whatever reason to step up and be able to parent. And there's a philosophy out there right now of, well, just give her some more money, just help her with a month or two of housing. Okay. But that short-term fix may not deal with a long-term issue. Now, certainly if it's a short-term fix and that fixes the long-term issue, great. But

Matthew Darrah (29:11.309)

Not at all.

Matthew Darrah (29:15.66)

Yeah, absolutely.

Donna Pope (29:17.159)

The long-term issues are often much, much deeper. And a short-term fix is not going to change it. And so now you're a few months down the road, and she's back in the same position without any additional resources, and now with a child that's two, three, four months older, and the challenge is even greater. Or the child ends up in foster care and gets bounced around for the rest of their life.

These are not good options. The challenges that I see right now in the adoption community is, and so I very much appreciate what you're doing, is we focus on the immediate problem and try to fix the immediate problem without thinking through what the long-term problem is and where things may end up in a year or two years or three years.

decide how to fix those problems as well. Because the immediate problem is painful. It's painful. We don't want to do it. don't, birth mothers don't want to place their children for adoption. They don't want to. And yet if they choose to do that, sometimes it's for the purpose of avoiding a more painful situation down the road.

Matthew Darrah (30:29.75)

No.

Matthew Darrah (30:44.824)

And kudos to them for making that decision. Kudos for them to go through all the things and then give that baby away. it's just hard. like you say, mean, so you guys, so you talked about you support the birth moms after. How long does that?

Donna Pope (31:10.697)

Correct.

Matthew Darrah (31:14.392)

How long do you, how do you support them?

Donna Pope (31:17.959)

Yeah, no, that's a really interesting question, because there's a big debate on that right now. And part of the debate is, well, don't give them any help afterwards, because that's just going to make them feel coerced, or make them feel extorted, or make them feel like they have to do something. And so don't help them. And yet, on the other hand, there will help them help them. And so it is an interesting contrast.

Matthew Darrah (31:31.628)

Mm hmm.

Matthew Darrah (31:41.932)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (31:47.785)

because anybody who adopts a child, and you could ask, and every one of them would say the same thing, do you want us to help your birth mom? They would say, yes. They would say, yes, help our birth mom. But people who are kind of not in favor of adoption as much will say, well, don't help them because it makes them feel pressured to do an adoption plan. And so it is a difficult thing that we're facing right now.

Matthew Darrah (31:58.648)

What?

Donna Pope (32:17.797)

as to how much help to provide, because all of us want to help. We don't want this mom to have gone through this traumatic experience and now be back out on the street. We don't want her to go through this traumatic experience and then have to go into a relationship with the birth father in a domestic violence situation or all sorts of problems that happen.

Matthew Darrah (32:33.836)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (32:46.161)

yeah.

Donna Pope (32:47.153)

We want them to be able to make sure they've got a home, make sure that they have ample food, be able to get some new clothes, be able to get transportation to get a job and be able to move forward with their life. And that takes money and some time. And so we are in a difficult spot right now as to how to provide that without it being perceived or actually be a pressure that takes away from

Matthew Darrah (33:03.02)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (33:16.257)

self-determination. It's a difficult balance to walk. My philosophy is give them at least two months of supporting them and giving them a chance to go get a job, make sure that they've healed adequately, and be able to move forward. Help them with housing for a couple of months, help them with something to help them get back on their feet. That, however, is being criticized. It's funny thing to me.

Matthew Darrah (33:42.722)

That's crazy. That is, that's bizarre. So you're just supposed to kick him to the curve and say good luck? I mean.

Donna Pope (33:45.127)

It's a thing to me.

Donna Pope (33:51.209)

We don't want to influence you, so therefore we're not going to help you. It's an amazingly short-sighted perspective from my point of view and is coming from people who don't seem...

Matthew Darrah (33:54.936)

Wow.

Matthew Darrah (33:59.586)

Yeah. Okay.

Donna Pope (34:07.623)

to see the whole picture.

Matthew Darrah (34:09.176)

Right, yeah. man, that just blows my mind that people would be like, don't support them afterwards. That just doesn't make any sense to me. So you talk about true informed consent. What do you mean by that?

Donna Pope (34:20.945)

It doesn't make any sense.

Donna Pope (34:33.371)

Well, a true, you know, it's real, informed consent, meaning that they clearly understand the options. Now, what are the options? Again, we go back to the options are you can parent the child, you can abort the child. Now, obviously, once they've had the child, they can't abort it. But so then their choices are parent this child or place this child for adoption. Those are the two options. So

Matthew Darrah (34:36.941)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (35:03.529)

The big challenge there is to make sure they're clear about what the consequences are. Well, the biggest challenge is if I place this child, will I be able to get them back? And it depends on the laws of the state. Can I get them back? Meaning, is the relinquishment or the giving up of the child that I'm doing undoable?

Matthew Darrah (35:18.52)

Mm.

Matthew Darrah (35:22.114)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (35:31.419)

And that depends on the laws of the states. So making sure they're clear about that. The second thing is, is there a period of time in which when I could get the child back? The next real important consequence is, am I going to have any relationship with the child once I place them for adoption? And that's going to be dependent again on several factors. One is primarily the adoptive family.

Matthew Darrah (35:34.018)

Sure.

Donna Pope (35:58.343)

or is the adoptive family willing to stay involved in the birth mom's life? So that's an important part. And what does that look like? Will I be able to have visits? Will I be able to have any sort of relationship? And that's when I talked with you about Hearts Connect. We want to put it out minimally that there will be the opportunity to see pictures and letters and that the birth mom can have the chance to respond to that or not respond to that. But that that

particular option will be her. That's informed. So will the adoptive family follow through on that? Well, here's the challenge that we have because we can't control adoptive families. And so one of the options is we'll make it legal, make it a legally binding agreement that the adoptive family has to follow. Well, and on the surface, that sounds all fine and good.

Matthew Darrah (36:56.343)

Right.

Donna Pope (36:56.629)

We all know that forced relationships are the least healthy relationships. The best relationships are when both people come into it mutually agreed upon some certain outcome. That's the best relationships. And if you've got this thread of legal, it's going to mess up the relationship. Now, I'm not saying that that shouldn't happen. I'm not making that determination. I'm just saying that a better option than force

Matthew Darrah (37:02.773)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (37:10.04)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (37:17.441)

Sure.

Donna Pope (37:26.755)

is education and choice. Because in the same way that birth moms should have self-determination, so should adoptive families have self-determination, and eventually so should the children have that option to do whatever they choose to do. And how does that best come about? Well, it best comes about by creating an environment in which the parties can be a part to the degree that they feel comfortable with.

Matthew Darrah (37:29.944)

you

Matthew Darrah (37:41.378)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (37:55.529)

and also feel that their rights are not being stepped upon or their boundaries aren't being crossed. And so that's a tricky thing to do, but that's what we're trying to do.

Matthew Darrah (38:01.943)

Hmm.

Matthew Darrah (38:05.499)

Yeah. Yeah. We had, so we, once we got permanent, we didn't, we couldn't adopt, we got permanent managing conservorship. We had visitation for about three and a half years after that forced. it was, it was in the court order. awful. It was awful for the kids, was awful for us. There was, it was monitored at a, was a therapeutic monitoring place? And

Donna Pope (38:16.905)

And how it was forced and how was that for you? It was awful. Why was it awful?

Matthew Darrah (38:34.178)

there was a sheaf of paperwork of how visits were supposed to go, what they were supposed to look like. it was, she refused to follow the orders and how, and she was constantly doing and saying things that she wasn't supposed to do and scaring the kids and, you know, just do, I mean, one time,

we had to bring the kids, but the kids could determine whether or not they wanted to go back or not. And so one week, the middle boy didn't want to go back. Didn't explain why he just said, I don't want to go. And so the other two came out with gifts and, well, yeah, then he's like, well, where's mine? Well, mom's mom, mom said exactly. Mom said, if you, you can have it the next time you come.

Donna Pope (39:11.411)

Mm.

Donna Pope (39:20.223)

then he feel bad.

Donna Pope (39:25.658)

you didn't get one because you didn't go.

Matthew Darrah (39:31.85)

Okay, can't do that, that's bribery, right? And so, I mean, it was three and a half years of every week, some something. And it finally was stopped by the agency when she snuck in pictures of bedrooms that she had set up for them so that when they were gonna come home. And it was like, it scared them.

Donna Pope (39:45.513)

you

Matthew Darrah (40:00.856)

It scared them to death. Like, wait a minute, we've been here for like four and a half years at this point and we're gonna go, are we gonna stay here? Are we gonna go live there? What are we doing here? And so, mean, all I'd say is the forced ones makes it difficult, for sure.

Donna Pope (40:22.857)

And you understand where people are coming from. You understand that the foster care system is focused very much on reunification. That's their focus, which oftentimes is fine. It's good, but sometimes it's not.

Matthew Darrah (40:32.438)

Yeah, when it's hard.

Matthew Darrah (40:43.0)

Yeah, well sadly, yeah, in Texas, they measure recidivism in prison, right? Once you've been in prison, you're more likely to go back to prison, right? They measure that in foster care too. And so 45%, 45 % of the kids who have been in care, who go back to bio-family, are back in care within five years. Half, half, yeah, back in care. Now, again,

Donna Pope (41:07.433)

45%.

Matthew Darrah (41:13.56)

Okay.

Donna Pope (41:13.645)

What if there's a double recidivism? I mean, what if they come twice? What does the number jump up to?

Matthew Darrah (41:18.68)

to come back a third time? I don't know, I don't know. That would be an interesting one. Yeah, I'm sure it would be. And again, we're not, we are compassionate towards the birth parents, right? I mean, we're not out here, you know, there's terrible people. Like I said, a huge percentage of the kids in care,

Donna Pope (41:21.481)

Yeah, that would be interesting. I suppose that would be high.

Matthew Darrah (41:46.902)

will end up with kids in care. I've seen the numbers. I don't remember them off the top of my head. But I mean, it's cycle. It's a cycle. so at some point, we've got to figure out how to reduce the cycle, stop the cycle, something like

Donna Pope (42:02.729)

And that is the thing, that is why I admire women who do a voluntary relinquishment as opposed to an involuntary relinquishment. Because they have thought it through and they have come to the conclusion that for whatever reason, and the number one reason women give when in some of these challenging situations for doing an adoption plan is that they don't want to be forced into an involuntary one.

Matthew Darrah (42:08.599)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (42:14.881)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (42:31.736)

Mm.

Donna Pope (42:32.136)

and that idea of, don't want to lose my kids. And so rather than having the child go through this back and forth thing of foster care, they choose to act in the best interest of the child and give them a permanent home and a permanent relationship. And that to me is very mature and it's very well thought through.

Matthew Darrah (42:59.18)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (43:02.089)

And they're very careful about wanting to have a say in where the child goes. And that's big for them. I want to choose the family. I want to make sure that this family has been vetted, that this family has good relationships, that this family is ready to take on a child. I, the mom, want to make those choices. And then I want to have an ongoing relationship with this child, if at least at

Matthew Darrah (43:10.424)

you

Donna Pope (43:31.689)

pictures and letters and videos. I want to have that. And all of that is gone when the child gets taken involuntarily from them. Oftentimes, they'll be talking with social workers with DCFS and foster care. And the foster care people will say, yeah, but you'll have the opportunity to get the child back. And some will say, yeah, OK, well, I'm going to go for that.

Many will say, no, no, I don't want this back and forth for my child. I don't want the back and forth for my child. I want my child to feel secure and safe with wherever they're at.

Matthew Darrah (44:13.346)

Right. Yeah, some of the research that I've seen is that every major transition, so the removal, going back or going from one foster family to the next, is a six month behavioral and developmental regression. Yeah.

Donna Pope (44:27.823)

Is that so? So that one that she'd gone through 50 placements and there's no stability and there's she has no ability to even monitor her behavior.

Matthew Darrah (44:33.012)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (44:40.088)

Right, do you, golly, how do you, an adult, you know?

build solid, stable relationships and hold a steady job and do the things with that kind of background. mean, my goodness. That's why she was on the podcast. I respect her so much because now she's doing fantastic. She's a great mom. She's stable. She's doing really well. But the likelihood of that is just so small.

Donna Pope (45:16.211)

So how did, I'm curious, how did she pull it together?

Matthew Darrah (45:20.31)

that agency that does the aftercare for these young moms, or young women, not necessarily moms, but yeah, she got into her program, got stabilized, got a job, got called Fostering Independence. Yeah, yeah, it's, and her story is amazing because she, they were gonna go, they were just gonna buy a house and,

Donna Pope (45:23.664)

Donna Pope (45:33.961)

What is the name of that program?

I love it.

Matthew Darrah (45:49.304)

I can't remember all the details, somehow or another, they were like, you know, instead of buying this house for us, we could put some girls in here that are aging out of foster care. And it just kind of took off. you know, all of a sudden she had a nonprofit. It's kind of like ours. I mean, it was just like an idea. And then it just became, she's got several houses and they do case management and help with the girls with school and cars and all kinds of stuff.

It's an amazing order.

Donna Pope (46:20.027)

and specifically take foster care kids.

Matthew Darrah (46:23.448)

Yeah, girls that are aging out of care. So between 18 and 20, 22 or 24, something like that.

Donna Pope (46:30.985)

See, those kind of resources are, those are great resources. And it would be fun to have that duplicated in every state.

Matthew Darrah (46:40.888)

absolutely. Every city should have plenty of places for these kids. Because you think about it, turn 18, now you have nowhere to live. Right. mean, goodness. What are you going to do at 18 when you have no, you don't have any family to turn to, you don't have any, you know, what are you going to do? And so these programs that a lot of

Donna Pope (46:50.717)

You don't know nothing. You don't.

Matthew Darrah (47:10.84)

18 year olds will not, they won't do it. I they're like, I'm outta here, I'm gonna go do my own thing. But the ones that, yeah, yeah. yeah, I mean, it's crazy to think how much these kids go through and then it's no wonder the cycle repeats.

Donna Pope (47:19.023)

Need it, then they need it. Yeah.

Donna Pope (47:35.931)

Yeah, it is no wonder. So how do we break these cycles? And that's our challenge in the adoption community. And what's so difficult right now in the adoption community, from my point of view, is that there's kind of, because there's trauma in adoption, there's sort of this mindset of we should stop that trauma.

Matthew Darrah (47:44.886)

Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Pope (48:04.733)

We should avoid any trauma in the lives of any of the people in the adoption process, but it's not possible. The option you're left with is to do nothing. And then what happens is the kids are, they either go into foster care or they're out on the street or whatever problems they are. So instead we need to take kind of a proactive role of let's provide these options.

Matthew Darrah (48:13.26)

Yeah, what option are you left with?

Right.

Matthew Darrah (48:26.615)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (48:34.434)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (48:34.983)

Now, we're not forcing anybody. We don't make anybody do anything. But if we limit their options, we limit their options. And so how do we avoid limiting people's options? Well, to give people options, you have to let them see, you know, you have these are the directions you can go and then show them the resources that could help them go the direction that they choose and then provide those resources and make sure. And I loved what you asked when you said.

Matthew Darrah (48:42.166)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (48:56.46)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (49:04.137)

make sure there's true, what did you call it? That there's true and informed consent. That they're very clear. This is what will happen. Here's the consequences that will follow if you make this choice. And if you make this choice, well, some of those consequences we can't predict. If you decide to parent, can we predict what those consequences will be? No, no, we can't. But...

Matthew Darrah (49:10.326)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (49:25.197)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (49:31.677)

We can make some educated guesses and we can share those educated guesses with them. And then we go back to that self-determination. Then we give them the freedom to decide themselves what they're going to choose. And we support whatever the decision they make. I don't know. We need to do that better. In the whole adoption community, we need to do that better.

Matthew Darrah (49:45.794)

Yeah, whatever, whatever. Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (49:52.396)

Yeah, man, absolutely. mean, you know, and then, and then too, on the adoptive parent side, the foster parent side,

I don't know how to do it better, how to prepare them better, because I know there's trainings and trainings and you get told and all the things, but there's a book that we put in all of our placement packages by a woman named Robyn Gobbel, and it's called Raising Kids with Big Baffling Behaviors. And Big Baffling Behaviors. Now, she was...

Donna Pope (50:09.769)

Mm.

Donna Pope (50:29.33)

with big what?

Big baffling behaviors, okay.

Matthew Darrah (50:35.496)

she was on the podcast a couple months ago. She has a podcast. And it's a real it's the way the book is written is really interesting because it's it's it's Robyn with a fictional mom who has adopted and and and so it's kind of a bird's eye view of this kind of coaching relationship for like a year as as as they

Donna Pope (50:38.505)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (51:02.429)

Thank

Matthew Darrah (51:03.146)

sit together and have conversations and then Robyn kind of breaks them down and things like that. But what struck me just in my soul when I read it and then decided we were going to start putting them in placement packages, Nat is the young mom who is sitting with Robyn. And the first thing she says is, I knew it was going to be hard. I didn't know it was going to be this hard. Right? And I have heard

I have said that and I have heard that said so many times. So how we can better support families that are bringing these kiddos into their homes and better prepare them for the struggles that they're going to face, I don't have the answer. That's why we give everybody a copy of the book because this is hard. raising kids is a hard period. But then when you add in trauma, man, it's tough. It is so hard.

Donna Pope (52:01.093)

I love that title, big baffling behaviors. I love that title because any of us who have raised children that have these extra challenges, that's how we feel. This is a big baffling behavior. I don't know what to do here. And we go and we get counsel and we go and get try to help people. I remember sitting in a meeting.

It was at one of these ranches or these wilderness, it wasn't a wilderness program because there was housing, but it's where kids were sent that had, they needed inpatient, long-term inpatient counseling and care. And they had a school there and things like that. And, you know, there's a lot of people that are very much against those programs. And to some degree, I understand why. On the other hand, I sat in a room,

Matthew Darrah (52:41.868)

Mm.

Donna Pope (52:58.243)

with a bunch of parents that had brought their children to this program and listened to their stories. And one of the common things was, I don't know what to do. I simply, he or she walks in the room and I can't even breathe. I can't even breathe. I don't even know what to do. I don't know what to do. And the challenge is neither does the child.

Matthew Darrah (53:10.264)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (53:24.684)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (53:25.671)

The child doesn't know what to do. The child is at such a loss as to what they're supposed to do. And they're not acting malevolent. They're not saying, I want to hurt my mom. They're not doing that. They're just responding to what are big baffling feelings inside of them.

Matthew Darrah (53:29.163)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (53:42.816)

Right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why it's so hard, really from everybody's perspective, but from the foster and adoptive parents to try to figure out how to this kid who they don't understand why they're feeling what they're feeling. You know, so many times there's a trigger in there that they...

that they're not even conscious of. And it's bringing up something that they don't consciously remember, but they remember the feeling. And that's one of the big premises of the book is where we get these triggers based off of something that we don't have conscious memory of, but it makes us feel like we're reliving it in the moment, even though it's...

It's a completely different scenario, but your body remembers the feeling from before and then you react in a certain way. And so that's what makes this journey just so hard for the families and for the kids, because I mean, when you're dealing with trauma, we've done so much research and learning in the last probably 10, 15 years.

around trauma and trying to understand it better because I mean, it's deep. You can't just power through it. You can't just get over it. You've got to do some work to heal. But that's one of the big things that gives me hope is that there is hope. There is healing from this trauma. I mean, there is.

Donna Pope (55:36.297)

So where are you finding that healing? I know I've interviewed a few people that that's been their life's work, is how do you work with the somatic, meaning the bodily feelings of people that are experiencing trauma and help that to heal? What are you finding?

Matthew Darrah (55:42.424)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (55:47.49)

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I have been doing some EMDR that has been really beneficial and then and then.

Donna Pope (55:59.667)

Just so in case people don't know what EMDR is, explain that.

Matthew Darrah (56:03.168)

Yeah, so EMDR, I can't remember what it stands for. Eye movement, something with a D-R. can't remember. Something with a D-R. Right, so there's a couple of different ways you can do it. You can do it with paddles in your hands or headphones on your ears or tapping on your legs or a bunch of different ways to do it. it's the craziest thing. I sat there the first time and I was like, this is dumb.

Donna Pope (56:10.089)

I'll look it up while we're talking.

Matthew Darrah (56:32.312)

how the heck is this gonna work? But you sit there and you think about this memory, whatever memory is troubling you, and you just think about it. then you, however you're doing it, whether it's the light or the paddles or whatever, and there's this sensation going between left and right, left and right, and left and right. And somehow, and again, there's all science behind it I don't understand how the heck it works.

But somehow it moves that memory from where you're feeling it to another place in your brain. And so you can think back on that memory and not feel like you're in it. Right. And again, there's there's a whole science behind it that I don't understand. But I remember sitting there the first time thinking, this is dumb. There's no way that this can do anything. And it did. I mean, and so I've done I've done that some

And then just some therapy. then I read a lot. I'm reading Adam Young's book right now, Making Sense of Your Story, which has been really, really good. The Body Keeps Score. gosh, What Happened to You with Oprah and Dr. Bruce Perry, right? And so trying to do a lot of the work of overcoming my traumas.

Donna Pope (57:40.435)

Mm.

Matthew Darrah (58:00.97)

and trying to help my kids with their traumas.

Donna Pope (58:05.309)

I'm going to just fill in just a couple of things, what we talked about. So EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. And like you were describing, it's a way of taking a memory from an area of your brain and moving it in such a way so that it reprocesses that memory so that it's less distressing and it's better integrated in with the rest of your life.

Matthew Darrah (58:15.18)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (58:34.457)

And it works. It works. When worked with a therapist that knows how to do it and does it well, it can take things that were traumatic, very traumatic, and give them purpose. And when we, there's a lot of studies in grief that we talk about the stages of grief or the cycle of grief, and it goes denial,

Matthew Darrah (58:35.96)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (58:47.872)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (59:03.099)

It goes bargaining, then anger, I'm missing one, and then it goes to acceptance. But one of the things that's really becoming very apparent is that if you add another stage, which is purpose, then it brings the whole cycle of grief into a different well. And in some ways EMDR is doing that on a somatic level, on a bodily level.

Matthew Darrah (59:13.366)

Mm-hmm.

Matthew Darrah (59:21.216)

Mmm.

Donna Pope (59:32.413)

but we can do it cognitively and we can actually prepare people for it. There is a purpose to the pain that you're going through. Now, if you talk with a mom who's giving a birth to a baby, she would say there was pain, there was a lot of pain, but when the baby came out and the baby was now there and she could see the purpose, it's not that the pain was never there, it's that pain now has a purpose to it.

Matthew Darrah (59:39.745)

Hmm.

Matthew Darrah (59:47.552)

Yeah, true.

Matthew Darrah (59:57.442)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:00:01.211)

and therefore you move beyond it, you move past it. And I think we can do that. Weight lifters that go into the gym and they lift weights, it hurts as they're lifting their weights, but they have a reason for it and there's a purpose to the pain. When we lose track of what that purpose is, when we lose track of why we're going through what we do, or we have never been able to see the why, and you think of a poor little kid that's

Matthew Darrah (01:00:03.584)

I love that. I love

Matthew Darrah (01:00:14.124)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (01:00:19.063)

Yeah, I love that.

Donna Pope (01:00:30.793)

in foster care and bounced around from here to there, they can't see the purpose. All they feel is the pain. And that would be very difficult for them. Well, they can't. They can't process it. They don't have any way to do it. And so having people that can work with them on levels that they can't even articulate is a useful thing.

Matthew Darrah (01:00:53.41)

for sure. Man, this is such a good conversation. I'm so glad we got to do this. So let's see.

Donna Pope (01:00:57.949)

Yes, we do.

Matthew Darrah (01:01:06.53)

Okay, I think we're get past all that. So tell us a little bit specifics on heart to heart. How does it work? Are you just in a certain area or do you do the whole country or how does heart to heart work?

Donna Pope (01:01:23.045)

sure. Yeah and and when I talk about providing options for women one of the things that's being argued on a national level is that women should not have the option of being advertised to meaning they shouldn't be able to see ads from anywhere except for in their own state and and I of course disagree with that because

Matthew Darrah (01:01:44.94)

Mm.

Donna Pope (01:01:49.157)

not always are the options for women in their state what they need. And so we advertise throughout really most of the states. There's a few states that don't allow us to advertise because of the thing I just said, which they want only women, they want the women in their state only to see the options of the services in their state, which, you know, that's their loss. And so we abide by their laws.

Matthew Darrah (01:01:54.189)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:02:18.217)

It does, in my opinion, limit women to the options that they have. But the argument is that they shouldn't have them. So we advertise throughout the United States and we work with women all throughout the United States. If they need to get away from where they're at, we can arrange for them to do that. Most women stay where they're at, but they usually additional help with housing, sometimes help with getting their phone, their utilities.

Matthew Darrah (01:02:39.224)

Mm.

Donna Pope (01:02:48.041)

Sometimes they'll need help finding medical providers where they're at. And then we provide counseling and that counseling can be over the phone counseling or we can help get them face-to-face counseling. Then they are then based upon then they say hey this is what I'm looking for in a family I want a couple I don't want them to have children I want them to have a dog or whatever it is that they're looking for in a family and generally what they're looking for is simple.

Matthew Darrah (01:03:02.188)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:03:18.289)

I want someone to love my child. I want someone to love my child. I don't care about their religion. I don't care about their education. I don't care about even if they have other kids. Sometimes they do. And so then based upon whatever it is that they are looking for, we have many, many families that have gone through the whole home study process. They've gotten their home studies. They've gotten their background checks. They've gotten references.

Matthew Darrah (01:03:20.47)

Right.

Donna Pope (01:03:47.205)

got medical checks. And so they have been very, very thoroughly vetted. And then they create profiles where they show about themselves. They have pictures and so we provide those profiles to the moms. And the moms will then say, I really want to talk with this particular family or I want to talk with three of these families. And so we arrange for those conversations. And then eventually they can choose the family that they want.

Matthew Darrah (01:03:52.247)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:04:12.295)

We try to arrange for them to get together at some point before the delivery happens, if possible. Sometimes it's not possible. And then they get together at the delivery. Now, most of the children we do are newborns. We do, however, have women that will come and say, I tried to parent, but I can't. And so they'll place their children a little later, and sometimes months later, sometimes even years later. And so we go through the same process with them.

Matthew Darrah (01:04:30.572)

and

Matthew Darrah (01:04:38.392)

I love that you guys provide counseling support for these moms because I mean, it just has to be so hard to make that decision that I can't do this and what's best for this child is to not be with me. I mean, that has just got to be.

Donna Pope (01:05:04.777)

As parents, we can't even hardly fathom that. We can't fathom that. And the additional part that we can't fathom is how do I live with that afterwards?

Matthew Darrah (01:05:08.92)

No.

Matthew Darrah (01:05:16.31)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:05:18.865)

I failed my child. And so the purpose that needs to be built into this conversation, and it's not fake, it is real, is I want more for my child than I am able to provide. And because I love my child enough, I'm willing to let that child go in order for them to get what I can't provide for them. That's huge.

Matthew Darrah (01:05:42.41)

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you talk about it being difficult to find that purpose. I'll tell you another story. So I met my bio mom in my 30s.

And she refused to accept any responsibility for the fact that there was five of us that were, she had five, the middle.

Donna Pope (01:06:10.345)

Interesting.

and you all went into foster care.

Matthew Darrah (01:06:17.088)

all four of us did, the middle sister, her biological dad heard that CPS was coming, grabbed her and took her out of the state. And so the four of us were placed in care, multiple times, but the last time we were placed and spread out. And then my parents came and adopted the four of us.

Donna Pope (01:06:18.375)

or if you went into foster care.

Matthew Darrah (01:06:46.388)

So fast forward to my 30s where I'm getting to know her some, she would not accept any responsibility for anything. And her statement was, those foster care workers, they get a bonus every time they put a child in care. I'm like, no, they really don't. So she could not find a purpose for us having

Donna Pope (01:07:06.953)

So she moved.

Matthew Darrah (01:07:15.956)

and gone and couldn't deal with it. 30 years later, she couldn't, she had no capacity to deal with the fact that she was not a capable parent. so CPS had to take us.

Donna Pope (01:07:31.613)

That is so interesting. So she never ever was able to not feel like the victim. She always felt like the victim and never could rise to the point of saying.

Matthew Darrah (01:07:41.452)

Mm-mm.

Donna Pope (01:07:48.879)

yeah, I did things wrong. Yeah, I kind of screwed this up. And, and I'm willing to do whatever I can to be whatever I can for my children now, even later on. So what is your relationship with her like now? Don't have one. Because she could never get past the. It's not my fault. It's not my fault.

Matthew Darrah (01:08:00.032)

Right. Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (01:08:04.448)

I don't have one. No.

No, everything, everything. was the victim in everything. She needed money. She needed this. She needed that. And it was, everything was always about her. I just, couldn't, know, Mother's Day came and we were having stuff with my mom and stuff with my wife's mom and things like that. So I called her the next day and my gosh, she was furious. Your mom has had...

you know, however many years, 30 years of Mother's Day is with you and you can't even find time to call me on Mother's Day. It's my turn, this, that, the other thing. it's like, she was just, she's just not, not healthy at all. And so I just actually stopped.

Donna Pope (01:08:50.855)

Yeah, and you don't even... Did she ever parent any child successfully? That she was able to parent.

Matthew Darrah (01:08:54.872)

She ended up having two later and she was, yeah, I mean, it was not a great scenario just because I've had conversations with those two. But yeah, so, yeah.

Donna Pope (01:09:13.031)

No, that's really interesting. And how has that led you feeling?

Matthew Darrah (01:09:15.384)

Hmm.

Matthew Darrah (01:09:19.148)

Man, it's just hard. mean, it is hard because we, know, my adoptive parents were not great. She was not great. And so, you know, I have had to do a lot of work trying to get to a point where, you know, one of the, I write some I am statements every morning. That's one of the first things that I do. And, you know, a lot of times I write, I am valuable and loved.

We had coins made, like challenge coins, they're big heavy coins that we put in our placement packages for these kiddos that say, I'm valued and loved. Because that is a hard thing to believe. When you've been through the things that I've been through that these kids in foster care have been through, it's difficult to internalize that they have worth, that you have value.

Donna Pope (01:10:16.531)

You know, it's really interesting or tempting to get mad at people. For example, to get mad at your adopted parents and say, you should have done a better job. And then you pause and you go, well, I suspect they did as good a job as they possibly could. And you can get mad at the foster care program. They should have found better foster care parents. Well, there's not tons of.

Matthew Darrah (01:10:16.92)

You

Matthew Darrah (01:10:25.292)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:10:43.699)

foster care parents that would be or adoptive parents that are going to take on four kids. That's a lot of kids to take on. And you can get mad at your biological mom and say, well, she should have done a better job or she should have just kept her legs closed or something. You could do all kinds of things like that. But eventually,

It's all your feelings have to come back to you.

Matthew Darrah (01:11:11.84)

Yeah. Yeah, you have to decide what you're going to do about it. mean, you can't go back and change it. you have to learn to... And that's what I like about how you're talking about taking it and making purpose, right? And I've told my kiddos now, like, you know, God has taken my pain of being in the foster care system, being adopted and all the things, and used it for me to sit here and say,

I'm gonna bring these kiddos into my home and I'm gonna love them and they are gonna know that they are loved. That is God taking my pain and turning it into a purpose.

Donna Pope (01:11:58.633)

I think the problem of pain, that's a worldwide and eternal problem, the problem of pain, meaning why do we live in a world that there's so much pain? And many people, they say, well, there can be a God if there's so much pain, why would a God allow that pain to happen? And adoption is bad because it's pain of

Matthew Darrah (01:12:09.086)

Mm. Mm.

Matthew Darrah (01:12:14.413)

Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:12:26.685)

Foster care is bad because it's pain, parenting is bad because it's pain, and everything has an element of pain to it. So how do we deal with that? Well, we really have two choices. Those choices are either blame it on somebody else, blame it on our parents, blame it on our kids, blame it on God, blame it on somebody, or the second choice is find purpose to it.

Matthew Darrah (01:12:33.688)

Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (01:12:44.981)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (01:12:54.38)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:12:56.103)

And how can I use what I'm going through right now to become a better person, to provide a better service, to understand people more fully? Those are our two choices when faced with pain. And sometimes we can't make it in the midst of the pain. All we can do is just simply survive in the midst of the pain. But afterwards, and it's like the mom having a baby.

Matthew Darrah (01:13:17.644)

Yeah. Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:13:24.777)

in the midst of the pain, she just either gets drugs or something, or she just endures it because she anticipates there will be a purpose. Sometimes we can't anticipate, sometimes we just feel pain. But afterwards, when the pain subsides, then sometimes we can see the purpose and utilize it. So you've done that in connection with becoming a better foster parent yourself.

Matthew Darrah (01:13:45.238)

Right. Yeah.

Matthew Darrah (01:13:52.32)

I've sure tried.

don't know that I've arrived yet, but we are fighting the fight and doing what we can to 13, 16, and 18. Yeah.

Donna Pope (01:14:01.235)

How old are your kids now?

you're in the midst of it, aren't you? You are in the middle of it. And how are they?

Matthew Darrah (01:14:10.86)

Yeah, yeah, it's an ongoing, if I say it's a challenge.

Donna Pope (01:14:16.253)

How are they doing?

Matthew Darrah (01:14:19.192)

It's tough. This year has been really challenging with just a whole bunch of stuff going on, pain issues happening and things like that. we're doing them what we can. We're loving them through it.

Donna Pope (01:14:38.917)

One of the things that I don't know, I'm not telling this for everyone to learn from because I'm still freaking learning from it. Because it's going to sound bad, but lower our expectations. We try to parent kids, we try to do things and we have these high expectations.

Matthew Darrah (01:14:47.064)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (01:15:04.784)

and they're going to be this and they're going to be that and they're going to do this and they're going to do that. And then we compare our poor kids to our imaginary expectations and we're always disappointed. And then we beat ourselves up because our kids didn't reach the expectations that we had in our imaginary mind. And then we condemn our poor kids.

Matthew Darrah (01:15:16.088)

Yeah.

Right.

Matthew Darrah (01:15:30.58)

Mm-hmm.

Donna Pope (01:15:34.067)

or doing something that it's beyond their ability to do.

Matthew Darrah (01:15:37.442)

Yeah, yeah.

Donna Pope (01:15:39.545)

And it's hard to lower expectations because then we think, well, we're a failure. We failed our children. And we have to deal with our own loss of our dreams and our hopes. But our choice is we either go through that loss or we put the burden on our children to be something that's not possible for them to be.

Matthew Darrah (01:15:46.804)

Right.

Matthew Darrah (01:16:04.428)

Yeah, yeah. Just gotta love them through it and do, you do the best that you can do and, you know, sometimes that's great and sometimes it's not. And then you have to come back and say you're sorry and try to be better next time. I mean, you we have to do, you gotta do the best you can.

Donna Pope (01:16:26.161)

Yeah, well, I could ask you a lot more questions. Yeah, but we can maybe talk again another time.

Matthew Darrah (01:16:31.224)

Yeah, we probably need to wrap this up. No, I definitely want to because this has been a great conversation and hopefully thought provoking, right? I like I said, like we've said, there's a lot of, there's just a lot of negative thought patterns and things like that around this. so I hope that some folks out there will hear this and maybe

Maybe have a little more compassion in their thoughts and the way that they treat folks. So how do they find you?

Donna Pope (01:17:10.939)

just go in, type in Heart to Heart Adoptions and our website will come up, except for in some states. Some states that don't want anyone to have the option. It is, it's a funny thing. It's a funny thing. Control versus freedom.

Matthew Darrah (01:17:14.38)

time

All right.

Matthew Darrah (01:17:32.236)

No kidding. Well, so thank you so much, Donna, for coming on and just sharing all the perspectives from the infant or the baby or kiddo that's getting adopted to the birth parents to the adopted parents. It's just really, really good. So thank you so much for coming on. Guys, please like, subscribe, share all the things.

I feel like we have a really good message here and so I want more people to see it. So please consider like sharing and subscribing. And then as I said at the beginning, placement packages this year. Our goal next year is 250. There's 600 that come into care in the 26 counties in a given year. And so we wanna get to where every kiddo gets a placement package. We need your help to get there. So we ask folks to be placement package partners. $10 a month buys us an outfit.

for a kiddo each month, $50 buys us a case of diapers, $100 buys us all the clothes for a package. So go to our website, painhandleorphan.org slash donate, and you can set up a monthly gift there. Thank you guys so much. And Donna, thank you again. So just for a really compassionate and interesting conversation. So thank you. Yeah, absolutely. All right. See you guys next week. Thanks.

Donna Pope (01:18:46.813)

Thank you.

Donna Pope (01:18:51.37)

It's been so fun. It's been so fun. We'll talk soon. Thanks. Bye.