Holding Space: Navigating Vicarious Trauma, Self Awareness, and Anticipatory Grief

Matt Darrah (00:00.824)

Hello and welcome to All Things Foster, a place for coffee, connection, and community. Thank you, Hannah, to coming on. Again, we've got a couple more episodes in this series, which we'll get into here in just a minute, but this week's episode of All Things Foster is sponsored by Falcon Ridge IT, your trusted partner for tech solutions that actually make your life easier, whether you're a small business, nonprofit, or just tired of tech headaches.

Falcon Ridge IT offers personalized IT support, cybersecurity, cloud services, and more. What we love about them is they're not just fixing problems, they're building real relationships and helping you grow with confidence. Here at POCN, we know how important it is to have dependable support behind the scenes. Falcon Ridge IT delivers just that. You can learn more at falconridgeit.com.

and see how they can help you stay secure, connected, focused on what matters most. Big thanks to Falcon Ridge IT for supporting the work we do and helping us care for foster families across the Texas Panhandle. And as always, or most of the time, my sponsors are folks that I know in the community. I had a laptop that I had to change the PIN on.

and then I didn't use it for like three months and then I'm trying to figure out how to get back into the stinking thing. You had forgotten it? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean it was WT because of those, they require you to change it so often. So often. So often. And it had to be, for some reason on my computer, had to be a PIN, not a password. And then the reset link had the wrong email address. instead of

PenhandleOrphan at gmail said PenhandleOrdfan at email. So I couldn't even do that. So I mean, I was completely locked out of it. And Ash came up and just fixed it and you know, it's pretty simple. So thank you Falcon Ranch for your sponsorship of this episode. And so today's title is Holding Space, Navigating Vicarious Trauma, Self-Awareness and Anticipatory

Matt Darrah (02:24.814)

So Hannah, as always, you'll just give us a quick rundown on who you are and why you know what you know and we'll go from there. Yeah, I'm sure my introduction has been different every single time, but I have a bachelor's and master's in psychology currently working on my PhD in psychology, public policy and law. So it's that kind of intersection between the legal system and human behavior. My specialties have centered around trauma and suicide for all of my education and I work as an advocate.

in here in the area with sexual assault survivors. Also have my own experience just with a lot of negative things in my childhood. And so getting to see the resilience and knowing that, again, what happened to you is not your fault. but you do have a responsibility, you know, of who you become and how you you handle that. So that's kind of my background. I've arranged my clients have arranged, you know, an age quite a bit.

In fact, with my new position, I joked on my personal social media page, my old advisor, Dr. Hambrick, would constantly try to get me to come over to the quote unquote dark side. So pediatric trauma psychology. I was adamant, no, I to stick with adult. And here I am, find myself in a new position and it is pediatric. Everything is pediatric. Most of my clients that I see outside of work

Pediatrics. So I'm going to say it's Dr. Hamburg's fault and I guess she got what she wanted. There you go. Well, mean, in my view, pediatrics is pretty darn important given my family situation. And then on top of that, know, of course, the adult stuff is important too, because I'm still trying to get through my past and my history. So thank you for coming.

on the podcast, five episodes, guys. It takes, it's a big thing for Hannah to set aside. So far, I think like five or six hours of time just doing the recordings, not counting doing the research and doing all the outlines and stuff like that. So, and then we've got two more left in the series. And so today and one more next week. So a disclaimer.

Matt Darrah (04:51.596)

This is heavy stuff. It's an ongoing series. And if you haven't watched episodes one, two, and three of this series, you really need to. We built a foundation and going back and editing it and getting it ready for dropping. Even though we had the conversation, going back through and editing it and watching it again and seeing. it's heavy stuff.

But we say it all throughout all the episodes, there is hope. Our next episode next week is all about the reversibility of trauma. But if you haven't caught those first three episodes, strongly, strongly encourage you, go back, listen to those first and get that really good solid foundation for understanding trauma. the topic today is vicarious trauma. And we'll define that here in a minute.

But because so many people in this world of foster care adoption, the counselors that serve them, everybody that serves them struggle with both vicarious trauma and I think anticipatory grief for sure. But so if you haven't watched those, please be sure, go back, listen to them, watch them. Super, super great information. And then the other important

Disclaimer, we said it last week and we're saying it again this week. We are not trying to help you diagnose yourself.

I don't diagnose myself, Hannah doesn't diagnose herself. You don't get to diagnose yourself because guess what? You're not objective about yourself. so we're not... That's the myth being busted. Yeah, right. We're not trying to help you come to a diagnosis for yourself. We're trying to get you to understand a little bit about trauma, about vicarious trauma. Maybe if you're suffering the effects of that, maybe you...

Matt Darrah (06:56.174)

need to get some help and things like that. So we're going to talk about vicarious trauma, stressors related to disorders, and dealing with the labels that come with those diagnoses and living with them.

Let's define vicarious trauma first and then we'll kind of go from there. Yeah, so we don't really have a myth for this week. I left it in the notes on accident because I use the same outline kind of format. vicarious trauma is essentially a lot of times it can present as post-traumatic stress disorder. That's what it looks like. But maybe you yourself didn't experience those things.

Or let's say in foster care situations, you have kids who come in who are really traumatized and they have significant behaviors or aggressive, that is then traumatizing for the parents, maybe for the other kids in the home too. And so it's really this emotional residue of exposure to others' traumatic stories.

So that's why when you brought up therapists, social workers, family, anybody involved in this situation, they're at risk for vicarious trauma. It can also be called secondary traumatic stress disorder, which sounds a lot more like PTSD, just a name. Some people in the field at least might say, I'm really burnt out or I'm struggling with compassion fatigue.

those are really all pretty synonymous for the same thing. It's struggling with holding space for everyone else's stories without having that break. know, recently, I might have told you, but I went on a vacation during that short time of being out of work because of just cuts. And as soon as I landed and got to my friend's house, it's like my nervous system kind of just relaxed and let out this sigh of relief.

Matt Darrah (08:57.77)

And a lot of people in my field, a lot of people I know don't take that time to step away because they feel such a heavy responsibility and burden to make sure that they're there for their clients and they show up for them and they're doing everything they can. And yet when they step away, they're still answering their phone. They're still on the computer looking at email. that really that that can lend to to vicarious trauma, compassion, fatigue, burnout, whatever popping up a lot faster. I know oftentimes when I get

super stressed, I'll take the camper and just go down to Palo Duro Canyon. And as I'm going down the hill into the canyon, man, just... It just helps. Getting away helps. so, yeah, mean, definitely something we want to work on is figuring out if we're struggling with this and if so, how do we...

How do we move beyond it? Yeah, and with that really comes that emotional awareness and emotional intelligence. you're not going to know if you're burnt out, if you're not aware of your own emotions or where you're at, or if you've hit, you know, a brick wall. think everybody hits a brick wall at some point in time, especially when you're in this kind of field. so, you know, I tend to believe in the multiple intelligence as theory.

I'm not going to break that down too much, but one of them is emotional intelligence. And it's one of the few, if not maybe one of the only, that you can, it's not something that you're born with. It's something that you can in fact learn. So if you didn't grow up in a house where you were taught how to emotionally regulate or be aware of your emotions, how your body's feeling, even if you're hungry or thirsty, you know, that, that introspective awareness, you could still

you can learn and grow that emotional intelligence will help you when it comes to trying to combat and mitigate vicarious trauma. It's kind of like working out. mean, you're not, you're not. Some people are born with a six pack, but most of the people who have a six pack, have to work at it. Yeah. And if they have a, if they have, if they're born with a six pack, then I would say there's probably, I was a chunky baby. I didn't say there's something wrong. My oldest son was just

Matt Darrah (11:25.486)

bone skinny. And he ate, know, he didn't have a problem eating, but he just had a six pack, you know, and he was just lean and all the things. So you can learn and grow your emotional intelligence. Which is needed again for the vicarious trauma aspect. We kind of touched on self-awareness, but let's kind of explain or define that a little bit more.

hit it, think, in passing. ability to tune into your own emotional state. Just taking time to... You know, talked about last week about the book on the emotions. The Atlas. Oh, Atlas of the Heart. Yeah, by Dr. Brene Brown. Sorry, don't come from me on that. So, being able to say, okay, I'm...

this emotion or that emotion. You talked about envy versus jealousy. I'm jealous or I'm envious and being able to feel where you're at. that's that taking the self, the being self aware of where you're at. Yeah. Yeah. And it's something I mean, a lot of kids get taught that when they're growing up. I know there are times where my nephew, when he was a little bit younger, he would kind of start to get upset and I would have him

At least when he was at my house or with me, sit and just kind of check in with himself. I'm like, why is he upset? Because being hangry is real. It's a thing. It's a thing. Right. Like by the end of of this recording, I think we're probably both going to be like, it's dinner time. Maybe start eating that spider. You don't know. I have an irrational fear of spiders and somebody who won't be named 3D printed one

And stuck it on her chair. It was horrible. Thankfully, it's not overly realistic. Otherwise, I just would have left. But yes, so that self-awareness tuning into your own body. If you can't tune into your own body, you're not going to be able to tune into your child's emotions and understand what they're thinking and feeling because children inherently are not going to be able. I mean, if babies knew that they were hungry, then they would.

Matt Darrah (13:48.139)

indicate that someway, right? But generally they cry and you go through like, they hurt? Are they hungry? Do they need a diaper change? Are they tired? those are kind of the ones that parents tend to go through. And you can't tune into to those kids if they're in foster care and you're fostering, if you don't have that self-awareness either. Anticipatory grief. Yeah, people don't talk about this. And I'm pretty passionate about it.

outside of all of the other things that I do.

And I'm passionate about it because a lot of times we see people who come around. Let's take a foster family, for example. They'll come around a foster family when they get a kid in, help them get clothes, get whatever they need for the kid, regardless of age. They've got the support. Maybe people are bringing meals. All of the things, right? And then they don't ever really think about

how those parents feel when that kid is maybe put back in their home. all the while, those parents could be feeling this just anticipatory grief where it's like, this kid is not going to stay with me. I'm going to have to say goodbye at some point. It's the same thing as with people who have family members on hospice. Maybe it's a slow decline or somebody is on life support and you know when the plug is going to be pulled.

for lack of better terms, you're still grieving just because that loss hasn't occurred yet. There's still grief there. And so people, like I said, they just don't talk about it a lot. In fact, I've gotten to the point where when a loss happens, I hate when people ask me, what can I do? Because more times than not, I find not just for me, but for other people, they're not in a mental space to be able to critically think through what they practically need.

Matt Darrah (15:50.467)

Just do something. Yes. And so I know anybody and everybody generally needs like laundry done, the trash taken out, some chores done, they need food, they need meals brought to them. And so I have a friend who talked about grief groceries. Like, let me just bring you some groceries, get you taken care of for a while. Grief groceries. so, yeah, I just I love talking about this topic because it helps to kind of reorient

people to the fact that obviously we're human with emotions, but grief doesn't start at the time of loss. It can start long before that. Yeah, I mean, my dad had severe, severe Alzheimer's. And so, you know, for the longest time, we watched him with this slow decline. And then, you know, he he towards the probably at least the last year. I mean, he didn't talk.

He couldn't feed himself, he couldn't use the restroom. He literally had a lift out of bed and into his wheelchair and then strapped to the wheelchair because he couldn't even sit up. And then he just stuck around and just stuck around. And you're just waiting. You're waiting. You're waiting. You're waiting. then, I don't know if I've told you this, but my mom had cancer.

And it was the same kind of thing. So they were both going downhill. This was in 2023. so she died October 5th, which was a Thursday. And then the next Tuesday we had the service and we rolled him in there. Now he didn't, he couldn't communicate at all. He couldn't feed himself. couldn't open his eyes most of the time. couldn't.

He just was there. He was crying during the service. And so that was on Tuesday. And on Saturday, he quit eating. And by the next Tuesday, he was gone. But we did. We had this whole long time where we were grieving or getting ready to grieve. And it's really grieving what was. Yeah. Yeah. So like for foster parents, the grief of

Matt Darrah (18:15.352)

having to hand that child back to maybe the state or bio parents, whoever it is, or just kin. And then, so it's the grief of having to hand them back and not having them anymore. But then the grief of we no longer have them in the home. The grief of our routine is completely different now. We don't have to wake up and do X, and Z. And I think it's something really important for people who want to get into foster care to consider. You gotta be aware.

want the ideal world. You want, when there's a situation, whatever the situation is, you want the kid to come stay with you long enough for the parents to get their stuff taken care of and then go back. You want that to happen. You really do. But, and I think I shared this a couple weeks ago that, you know, we measure recidivism in prison.

which is the likelihood of when somebody's been in prison to go back to prison. And they measure that in foster care. And 50%, 45 % within five years if they go back to bio-family, they're back in care. And so while you want, we root for parents to get taken care of what they need to, oftentimes...

you know that they're going back into a scenario that they will most probably be back. And that was where Nikki and I were the first time. We knew. I told the caseworker they will be back in care. Two years later, back in care. so the whole case, it's complicated because you want the family to get their stuff together and for them to be with them. But then you're also...

aware that there's a high possibility that this kid's going to go home and then if they do, they're going to be further traumatized and come back into care. this is going through your mind the whole friggin' time. you know, pretty much all foster families that I know have had this experience where they're like, are they going to go back, are they going to go back, are they going to go back, and if so, is it going to be good, is it going to be good? And then, you know, and so that...

Matt Darrah (20:37.324)

that being aware that you're gonna have that. The whole time you're gonna be like, man, are they gonna go back and if so is it gonna be a good thing? And you don't know, you really don't know. So yeah, you've gotta be aware coming into it that it's thing. just like everything else we're talking about, there's hope for it. You need to...

keep in mind that that's a possibility and something you just need to be aware of and deal with as you're going along. So, let's talk a little bit deeper about vicarious trauma. We kind of did the 10,000 foot view of what it is. So, let's kind of dig a little bit deeper. I think of it, you

A lot of people will say that the parent is living vicariously through the child, right? So, you know, I...when I was a kid, I couldn't do this, and so I want them to do that. the way it's talked about, it's not really for the child, it's more for the parent, right? I didn't get to do that, so I want them to do it whether they want to or not. And that's living vicariously through your child, right? And I kind of...

see vicarious trauma. Tell me if I'm wrong. That's kind of how I see vicarious trauma because you're you see the trauma and it's almost like you're going through the exact same trauma that they've been through. Right. Yeah. To an extent. Yeah. You can think about veterans who come back from war as well. know, again, vicarious trauma, a secondary traumatic stress disorder, essentially one in the same. I argue that, you know, again, compassion, fatigue, burnout, they're all pretty synonymous, pretty much the same generally.

And so when a veteran comes back and they have, let's say severe PTSD, you have maybe the spouse finding out everything, you know, their details, the details of their traumas, and probably not all of them, but a portion of them. Sure. On top of maybe some various aspects of aggression that could pop up or substance and alcohol use disorder.

Matt Darrah (22:59.808)

or even just waking up from a nightmare and being in a flashback thinking that your partner is the enemy. And so it is almost like they're kind of experiencing that trauma through the other person's eyes. And so that's why vicarious trauma is recognized within the field because even in the DSM, its definition of trauma, which we've established by now I don't care for, but even its definition talks about

exposure to trauma, whether it be direct, so I've experienced it myself, or indirect, you've experienced it and I've learned the details and I've heard about it from you. So yes, it is kind of like not necessarily vicariously being traumatized through them because you didn't experience exactly what they did. But yeah, there's that aspect. I really like the phrase like or the

I guess, diagnosis, secondary traumatic stress disorder. Because it helps, at least my clinical mind, it helps me understand that they're experiencing it more indirectly with the potential of there being primary traumas as well. So if their partner wakes up in a flashback and is choking them or whatever and is violent, that is a direct trauma. Right. Yeah. So.

Difference from burnout, which is a general state of exhaustion or cynicism, but this is kind of like burnout on steroids maybe or something? Or is it kind of different? So I put this in here because people use them synonymously. And in my field, I would still use them synonymously. When you think of burnout and you think of compassion, fatigue, most people can't really tell you the difference. They're going to say they're about the same.

By definition, they're slightly different, so a general state of exhaustion. So that would indicate anybody can get to point of burnout. Somebody working in customer service, they just get burned out with their job. Whereas, compassion, fatigue, vicarious secondary trauma is generally reserved for those who are being exposed to trauma as a result of their field or their situation, like foster care or something like that.

Matt Darrah (25:21.792)

In my field, I'll use burnout generally in the same way as I would vicarious trauma, but I'm also working with people who are constantly exposed to trauma, so that would be appropriate. Yeah, see. see. OK, so. Everybody can get burnout. Right. But not everybody can get burnout from exposure to trauma. All dogs are poodles, but not all poodles are dogs. Right. Right. Yeah, it's kind of that mindset. I said that backwards. All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles. I go with the square and parallel.

Parallelogram. Right. yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so the folks that are highly at risk for it, obviously foster parents is the big one that we're we're talking about. But I mean, your caseworker, your caseworker very probably has vicarious trauma because they're not just dealing with your family and your kids. They're dealing with 20 or 30 other families and their kids when

The first time we had the kids, the state was on a hiring freeze and so the caseworkers were just dropping like flies. so we had four caseworkers that year. Wow. In a year. And the fourth caseworker, we were her 54th case. my gosh. Yeah, not 54 kids, 54 cases. Yeah. And so if you think about that, just visitation, because they have to put eyes on kids once a month in the home. This is before COVID where they could just do it on the...

But they had to be in the home once a month with every kid. we had two, and thankfully they were able to be together. But a lot of times it was two or three or four kids in two or three or four different places. And so just trying to get the visits done in one month is virtually impossible when you start talking about all the other things. so they're seeing...

First hand, the abuse that happened to your kid, but they're also seeing firsthand the abuse that's happened to 20, 30, 40 other kids. so, you know, trying to keep in mind as you're dealing, as you're frustrated with the scenario with the caseworker that's, you know, maybe not doing the things as quickly or as fast as you'd like.

Matt Darrah (27:42.009)

But the reality is there's a high probability that they have vicarious trauma themselves. so, yeah, so foster parents, caseworkers, social workers, counselors, doctors. Yeah, nurses, paramedics. So any first responder, law enforcement. Yeah, anyone who's exposed to essentially a population that has a high trauma history or

rate of being traumatized. Of course, you you can be in the ER as well, and it may not be psychological trauma or something like that. But, you know, seeing someone who has a gunshot wound, that's pretty traumatic. Technically, according to the DSM, seeing a dead body is when it's not part of your normal life. Yeah, say when it's not part of your, you know, occupation or whatever. But, yeah, so those I love the point that you made about

being empathetic towards the caseworkers. So I've never worked in CPS. And I have a family member who did. just hearing her stories, I remember thinking, that's never going to be for me. But I did work for a local mental health kind of institution for a bit. And I had a caseload of 42 individuals. And for each one, we had to have what was called one

I think type A, if I remember correctly, and then two type Bs. So type A's were, I had to have a in-person contact with my actual client. I worked with those with intellectual and developmental disabilities. That would be type A. So I actually go talk to them about their goals, how they're doing, all of those things. Type Bs would be, I call mom or dad. I call cousin, I call sibling, I call their...

Dayhab program. And then you have to go back and enter all of those. And then when audit comes, if your notes look too similar, you get dinged on that. And then you get in trouble, right? Not just you, but your organization. so when we talk about... can't use chat GPT because I have... You know what? I don't actually know because that was before it was a real thing. But yes, the ethics around using AI within the field. There's more conversation happening, which I appreciate.

Matt Darrah (30:04.652)

But having that empathy towards your caseworkers and those involved in the foster care process, because I mean, I remember seeing one CPS worker at the hospital for my client and he was getting admitted. And the other one was like, yeah, I've got to go straight from here down to Lubbock. And it was 10 p.m. at night. I just there was no work life balance for for them. And having that empathy and understanding that

Honestly, their burnout is going to happen fast. They drop like flies, not because they don't love the job or love the people, but it's just not sustainable as a human being. Like you need to be able to go home and get sleep. We work best when we have a regular sleep and wake routine as humans. They are in a field where that a lot of times doesn't happen. So, So another one we didn't talk about would be a CASA worker, right? A court appointed.

special advocate. Now they're not, you know, they're not gonna be, they have one, maybe two kids or CYB cases or whatever. They may have, you know, three kids here and then maybe one or two over here if they're super experienced. But they are, those CASA workers are vital in the process.

Because they're the only ones in court that have no skin in the game. Their only job is to speak up for that child and to speak for what's best for that child. But they can go to doctor's appointments and school and visitation and they can drop in on the bio parents and you know, so a CASA worker could get vicarious trauma just through if they're compassionate and

and care about the kids because they're volunteers. I I know why they'd be doing it if they don't care about kids. yeah, I mean, I work with sexual assault survivors as a volunteer. Right. So I don't get paid for that. Yeah. I don't get mileage reimbursement. So it's my gas, my my time, my energy, my money, all the things. And yeah, the advocates, we have other volunteer advocates who do it. And I tell my clients any time I go in, make it very clear, the hospital doesn't pay me.

Matt Darrah (32:28.344)

The APD doesn't pay me, CPS, if it's a kid, doesn't pay me. And then I'll make a joke about my organization doesn't even pay me. And that normally helps to build a little bit of rapport. But just to help them understand, if you don't want this officer in the room, I have the authority to tell them to leave. That is their right. In fact, we've recently learned that for those cases, and I confirmed this with a law enforcement officer on a recent case I went on.

that they keep their body cams on the entire time. so it would be like if a therapist is talking to their client with a cop in the room. And so I've gotten to a point where when they're in the room, I ask them to step out when I need to talk with my client because they have a right for that not to be on camera and to have privacy. And I treat it as like a HIPAA violation. And at this point, every law enforcement officer has been really understanding of that. And I do tend to let them know this is why.

and they deserve that privacy. um... I feel like everybody watching a bridge interview. Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. You don't want that. Those are tough to begin with. And to think that, you know, that body cam footage would likely be subpoenaed, be it plea or court, I would assume it could be subpoenaed for either. But if it's court, think about everybody watching it. watching it. Yeah.

Yeah, and picking it apart. So they wouldn't just pick apart the survivor or the kid in the court case. They'd pick apart the advocate, how they said what they said, what they did or didn't do. Yeah, the law enforcement officer, anybody else involved. Anybody. So yeah, so lots and lots and lots of folks can be affected.

by vicarious trauma. Just a few signs, symptoms people should be aware of for themselves,

Matt Darrah (34:33.314)

this could be something I need to get help for. What would they be looking for themselves or maybe in their wife or their husband or something like that? What would they be looking for? So I tend to tell people, think of the quote unquote classic depression symptoms, right? As the starting point. If you're starting to lose interest in things you used to enjoy,

your appetite changes, your sleep changes. I even think about work. When I know I need a break is normally when I start to dread getting up to go to work. And it may not be that I hate the job, but I need a break, just a brain break. So those are things I'd look for, especially if you are in one of these fields or looking at foster care. Of course, that's a little different when you have a child placed in the home.

But it's something that you could potentially reach out to your partner or caseworker for support on of, I'm feeling like there's a shift. This might be compassion fatigue, which vicarious trauma, secondary traumatic stress disorder. But yeah, looking for those key things. Secondary traumatic stress disorder can mimic PTSD in some ways. Tend to argue it's not as common unless it's a first responder. I see it.

I've seen a little bit more in first responders than I have in even advocates like myself. You want to move on to the next one or do want to do that? Yeah, we can move on to the next one. I've kind of broadly talked about that. So the role of self-awareness, how self-awareness acts as a protective factor. What do you mean there? I mean, if you're not self-aware, you're not going to realize when you're getting burnt out.

when you're reaching compassion fatigue, when you are losing, just like when you check in with yourself, right? Why am I angry right now? What's causing me to be angry? Today, it's because it was so hot outside. There were times that I could feel I was irritated, and it's just because it was hot. Stand in front of a fan for five minutes, and I'm a completely different person, right? If you don't have that self-awareness, you're not going to be able to fix the issue, or at least try to find a way to solve it.

Matt Darrah (36:49.408)

And so it acts as a protective factor because if you're able to check in with yourself, more than likely, you're going to pick up on an issue sooner than later. Right. Yeah. So like if you if you start to realize, man, I'm not eating like I normally do or even I'm real bad about it. But when work gets crazy, especially with school right now, the combo of the two, everything else going on, it just it's so easy for me to

just forget all of the meal prepping I did, because I meal prep every weekend and be like, I'm going to go run to Canes. Don't hate on me for the people who don't like Canes. And grab some chicken strips and just go home and sit in my recliner and stare into the abyss. When that's starting to happen, for me, that's one of my indicators of, OK, something is off. Maybe I'm not getting the right amount of sleep.

I'm really religious about being in the gym every morning. If I'm not doing that outside of when I've injured myself, which unfortunately has been frequently, then I know that there are things I need to address. So maybe it's sitting down with with a boss and saying, I need time off. Can we make this work? Maybe it's sitting down with your partner, with your family saying, I really need support right now because I'm not feeling like myself.

If you don't have self-awareness, can't do any of those things. So ultimately, if you don't have self-awareness, you can't ask for help. Yeah. That's what it boils down to. OK. So so some some techniques, right? Journaling. Yeah. I have a love-hate relationship with journaling, I'll be honest. Yeah. I used to be an avid journaler for years growing up. And then, you know, I

I would find my parents searching for my sister and I as journals. And that really just, I mean, it broke trust, obviously, but that sense of privacy was like, I'm just going to keep it all in my brain. I'm not going to put it down on paper anywhere. If I do, going to immediately burn it or destroy it or something. But journaling is a really great practice to get into the habit of. you don't have to get just a blank journal for the record, Barnes and Noble.

Matt Darrah (39:09.74)

has some of the best journals around, just blank ones with lines or whatever, but there are ones that have prompts. So if you're one of those people where it's like, need to be asked a question in order to process something, there are journals for that. There can be gratitude journals. Maybe you can use that as a scale of, am I still feeling grateful? If not, maybe something's wrong. Yeah. So Rory Shepard, we had him on a few weeks ago, and he developed

It's a journal and I use it every day. And so you start out with some gratitude statements and then some I am statements and then like one character trait that I want to work on today and then things I'm praying for, people in my family I'm praying for, people outside my family that I'm praying for.

then there's a spot for meditation, and it could be a scripture, it could be a verb, you know, some other thing, and then move into planning the day and stuff like that. And so, I just, I think that that's a very powerful tool to start with, how am I grateful? What am I thankful for? You know, and if you're having trouble, like,

How about electricity and clean water and bathrooms and things like that? over your head. A car that runs, you know. Those are, you know, first world things that so many people don't have. obviously even people here, know, in Amarillo, mean, Homeless Heroes, is next door. But that's a good place to start is being thankful. And then, you know, therapy. mean, look, it's not...

It's not this big horrible secret. It's really really not. It's OK to talk to somebody. I've been doing it for two years and I still have crap I'm working on. I I came here straight from therapy. was at home chatting with mine, you know. I feel like people think it I mean, it goes along with the stigmatization around mental health. Ultimately, which I know here we still really battle in a lot of ways in a lot of areas. But.

Matt Darrah (41:27.822)

And that's why I'm more open about the fact that I go to therapy. There are some weeks where we really don't have much to talk about. But just being able to have that consistent person that I can check in with or complain about or another good example for me as an advocate, somebody who works around trauma exposed populations is she is one of the few people outside of the organization

that I have a confidentiality policy that I have to follow, she is actually the only person that I can ethically and legally process something with. So if I have a tough case, there's, I mean, I have three or four over the five years that I've worked with sexual assault survivors that really stick out to me. And they're ones that still stay with me and probably will. They're ones that I've processed with her because ultimately,

It was something where it's like, I don't talk about this, I'm going to end up immediately in the vicarious trauma. I'm going to I'm just not going to do I'm going to be trying to pour from an empty cup. Yeah. And you can't do that. I you absolutely can't do that. And let's let's just talk for a second about the fact that.

It's okay. Some foster families are like, know, some kids go home and they immediately take other kids, which is good. Some of them though are like, my God, if I don't do this, you know, this kid's not gonna have a place to stay. And so they agree and just get further and further and further down the rabbit hole. And it's okay to take a break.

And yes, it breaks our heart when there's kids out there that are sleeping in offices and things like that, but you can't pour from an empty cup. And so if you're in that vicarious trauma where you're just struggling, then take a break. You can't pour from an empty cup. that's, mean... Okay, so let's briefly hit on... gosh.

Matt Darrah (43:42.126)

We got to Hold on. We'll pause for a second. She's over there. It's 5.30.

the person for...

Matt Darrah (44:04.686)

I mean, I can quickly go through the definitions. I want to do it. Because these are just, these are essentially like subparts of emotional intelligence. So self-awareness is by itself self-regulation. And then the practical tips for emotional intelligence, I think would be really helpful. Let's try to get through it just a little quick because it's 5.35 and I told her...

530. let's talk about emotional intelligence. We touched on it. Let's talk a little bit more about the core components of emotional intelligence. Yeah, so like with all other intelligences, just intelligence in general can be broken down, emotional intelligence can too. So for emotional intelligence, what we tend to see it broken down to

are these five key areas. So you'd want to kind of self-reflect, look at yourself and see how you do with these. So self-awareness, being able to check in with yourself. Self-regulation, when you get angry, are you throwing something across the room or are you taking a deep breath? Right, being able to regulate your own emotions. Motivation, are you motivated to do the things you need to do? I hate mowing the yard. I think I've said it on here before, I hate it. I have a big yard. I didn't even think about it when I bought the house.

But motivation is part of that. It's something I have to do. Right? And so in some way I'm still motivated. Empathy is a huge one because that's going to be empathy for yourself and also for others. If you can't empathize for yourself and have... My therapist would love this because she harps on self-compassion all the time. And I just roll my eyes. I'm like, I can have compassion for people all day long. And everybody else. Everybody else. But me? No. No.

What are you talking about? Right. But at the end of the day, if you can't have self-compassion and empathy for yourself, again, you can't pour from an empty cup. you can't really truly show that to other people if you can't show it to yourself on some level. The last one is just social skills. How do you interact with other people? Right. Are you able to have good interpersonal relationships? Are they steady? Are they long term? You know, one of my best friends I've known since high school.

Matt Darrah (46:26.798)

I'm not going to give you the year because that really dates me, but I have really long-term friendships. In fact, I think one of my shortest ones is maybe five years at this point. I've known everybody for a really long time. So that's how emotional intelligence is broken down a bit more. it like your IQ score? Like there's number ratings and stuff like that? How do they... It depends on the measure you use. okay. Yeah, it depends. It depends.

I should have known. Why ask? I don't know why you ask when you already know the answer to it. It depends. See, I've already got a doctorate in psychology. It depends. I can give you a little diploma on the last episode. There you go. So how does that really help navigate trauma?

Matt Darrah (47:21.314)

Strong emotional intelligence. How does that really help? It helps a lot with the adaptive side of things. And there's some controversy around using adaptive versus maladaptive and all of that. if you have emotional intelligence, again, it goes back to the self-awareness. You're able to ask for help. So when you're in a trauma-heavy environment, you're both able to empathize.

with the people in that environment to understand while having that self-awareness and regulation and then doing what needs to be done to keep that environment as healthy as possible. That includes places like where I work, where we work with trauma-exposed populations daily. If our work environment is not healthy, that is going to impact everything else and everybody we work with.

That's where, yeah, emotional intelligence is actually, I attended a training a few months ago where they talked about emotional intelligence, specifically in youth, but if they hit a certain threshold, it drastically predicts that they will have a better future and just have better long-term relationships, better job relationships and situations. But EQ or emotional intelligence essentially,

Is a huge predictor for positive outcomes So how do you get better? emotional intelligence practice Just watch a bunch of sad movies that make you cry I'm over here watching aliens and stuff Emotional labeling is one we talked about this last episode too So I'm not gonna harp on it too much because you can go back and watch the episode. Please do

Emotional labeling, so name it. It lessens the severity of it. Atlas of the Heart, again, highly recommended by Dr. Brene Brown. That helps you to label those emotions. Next one is reflective listening. People have a hard time differentiating between hearing and listening. Hearing is taking in what somebody is saying with the intention to respond. Listening.

Matt Darrah (49:38.723)

is taking in what somebody is saying with the intention to understand and empathize. I like that. And so we so often, as a society, hear what people are saying with the intention of, that reminds me, I want to say this, or this is what I'm going to say next, instead of sitting and just soaking in what they say to understand where they're coming from. So that's another one. And then regulation strategies.

Those are pretty practical. It's generally breathing techniques, self-talk, going for The mindful thing on your watch. I had to turn that off because it kept telling me I was stressed too much. Like, your heart rate's a little high. Like, I know! Thanks. But I don't do it, I don't have it set to go off. It used to be, I don't know what happened. I'm 40 at five. It just seems like things aren't as easy as they used to be. But...

You can set it and say, once an hour, once every other hour, whatever, and it'll do a mindful thing and you just breathe with it and stuff like that. those are things that you can practice at to get better. When in doubt, Google it. If you need help with emotional intelligence, throw it in chat, GPT, carefully, and ask it what are some techniques. But those are the top three that we tend to see that are really helpful.

So let's talk sitting with anticipatory grief. We talked about what it is and kind of where it shows up with the long-term illness or, you know, the foster family has a pretty good idea that this child is going to go home and things like that. So what really are the kind of the normal responses to this anticipatory grief? How do you normally...

It depends. Look, you already answered. We move on to the next section now. It depends. It does depend. You're not wrong. know, everybody's different how they process grief. There are people who believe in the five stages of grief, you know, with acceptance being the last. They're the people I am of the belief that there are no just five stages and that it comes in waves. Yeah. That you could be having a really great day and something reminds you of your grandparent and you're like,

Matt Darrah (52:03.178)

man, I really, really miss them and have this wave of grief hit you. And so, sitting with it, again, goes back to emotional intelligence. You can't sit with something that you can't name. So, if you can't name, then it's grief. But I also want to normalize not trying to put it in a box and throw it on a shelf and invalidate its existence because the loss hasn't happened yet. Which I see a lot of like...

people invalidating even themselves. If I shouldn't be feeling like this, they're still alive. You know, my grandpa right now is on hospice. It was his choice to go on it. And we don't know when he's going to go, what that looks like, if it's going to be slow or fast. We have no idea. But there's still this grief of, I'm coming to a point in my life where I'm going to have to live the rest of my life without him. And that's hard to grasp because he's been there for 31 years at this point.

He turns 90 this year. He's been here for a hot minute. And so to think about not having him around even at my graduation when I get my PhD, there's a high likelihood he won't be there. So I'm anticipating the grief while also trying to celebrate a huge accomplishment. So you can, I also want to normalize, you can have dichotomous feelings, being really grateful for the time you had with those foster children while also grieving the fact that they left your home.

Matt Darrah (53:28.785)

This is something I think that is just not really talked about in the foster care space. And I just really think it's really important to, like I said, name it, understand it, and try to work through it. Because it can affect everybody in the home. My daughters, my oldest, when they were, when the kids...

You know, they were back and forth. We're not going to put them back, we're going to put them back, we're not going to put them back, we're going to put them back, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And so the girls were living in this state of limbo for over a year, like, are they going to stay, are they not? And we were. And so it's there, and it's not necessarily just there for mom and dad. It definitely can be there for the kids too.

And so we've got to figure out how do we process that? You talked about naming it. What do you mean by... And you talked about not putting it up in a box and validating it. What are you talking about? Rituals of preparation or closure? Well, I mean, in foster care situations specifically, or even hospice, you know that there's going to be an end. There's not this, we're going to have them forever.

I mean, some situations are like that. You could adopt them. having... There's somebody on social media I really like. She specifically fosters teens. She's a single woman, so she doesn't have a partner. And her home is essentially this revolving door of teens coming and going. And that's what she's used to. It's not that she doesn't want to keep them. It's just that's their situation. They go back to parents, whatever the case may be. So she has these rituals in place of...

when they leave, what she does next, be it like cleaning out the room, getting ready for the next kid, you know, it's going to vary per person. Some people want to just take a day off of work. So having those things in place. And I say rituals in the sense of have a, you know, when I work with individuals who have suicidal ideation, we do safety planning, right? How do we keep you safe? So think of it in the same sense.

Matt Darrah (55:49.775)

of let's go ahead and put supports in place now that are consistent and regular. So when that time comes, because it will come, they're already there. Because when you're in a place of crisis, of grief, and deep emotional turmoil, your frontal lobe, not working. It is amygdala all day long, basically. You're in your emotional brain, and you can't use that executive functioning.

I was up in Indiana when my dad died, so my mom had died, and then I drove up to try to see him again before he passed. while I was driving up there, he died. And so, was getting ready to drive up with me so we could do the funeral and all that. And her transmission just blew out in Joplin. And there was...

her and my daughter and the three kids and then my grandson. And the car's loaded with, you know, luggage and all the things. And so they pull up in there and they knew somebody was buying a car that day, you know. And she's calling me like, you know, like asking me all this stuff. And I'm like, my dad just died. Just handle it. Here's the number. Just handle it. I don't have it in me right now to deal with it. Right. And so.

You know, I do like that idea of having being prepared and having a support plan in place for the eventuality. That's a great idea. There is an app I want to mention real quick. I can't remember the name of it, but I might be able to look it up and you could possibly post it at the podcast. It's designed for people who have severe mental health crises. And they set up these safety individuals, essentially.

All they have to do is open the app when they're in crisis and push the button that says help. So they don't have to sit there and try to think about who should I contact because they've done that when they weren't in crisis. They've done it when they were able to logically, properly think through who are the right people for me to go to. And honestly, I think you could use that same app in a foster care situation. So have your support systems. And if something's going on, be it your kids have gone back with their

Matt Darrah (58:14.978)

biological family or it's just a really bad day with the kids, you can go and push that button and you have your people who call and check on you. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, send me that. I definitely want to look at that. OK, so key points. We talked about this last week with the diagnoses, but diagnoses are not the end of the world and they should not define you.

You are a person with... Vicarious trauma in this case, for the purpose of this episode. You are a person with that. You are not... I don't know how you would say it otherwise, but you are not your diagnosis. So, get help. Get help. Connecting in community. I say this all the time. We do better in community. So that's why...

All Things Foster is a place for coffee connection and community because we do better this way when in community. And so, get that plan ready if you are dealing with the anticipatory grief or if you're feeling like you might be in that vicarious trauma, get some help and take a break. They have respite. There's not...

nearly enough respite workers, but there is respite, and take the respite. You can't pour from an empty cup. And maybe that should be our myth for this week, you can't pour from an empty cup. But vicarious trauma is a real thing. And I know, I mean, I know it is for our family, and I know a lot of foster families who are dealing with that. And so get help. Be self-aware. Take that time.

Grow your emotional intelligence. Do the work. And know that it's normal and okay to get help, to ask for help. So thanks again, Hannah, for coming and talking us through this great information. I just so thank you so much for just being willing to do all the work to do this.

Matt Darrah (01:00:39.47)

series, we got one more series that'll post next week, all about the reversibility of trauma. Tune in for that one. I've been excited about that one since we sat down and started planning out this series. There is hope. Whether you're dealing with PTSD, your complex PTSD, or vicarious trauma, or this or that, or whatever, there is hope. You can overcome, and your children can overcome too. So, get help.

Guys, we here at Panhandle Orphan Care Network our main thing, aside from this podcast, is doing placement packages. Kiddos come into foster care typically with their clothes on their back. And so we step in and provide this placement package. Every kid gets a suitcase, a Bible, a teddy bear, a book, a toy, and a blanket, and then whatever else they need. So it could be clothes and diapers and car seats. We got a referral about an hour ago.

One family needed twin mattresses and some clothes. We got seven referrals about an hour before today. my gosh. Yeah. I got one family that brought in four kids and the other one's brought in three. so, know, the placement package can be anything that a family could need. And so we need placement package partners. These folks set up to give us something monthly.

$100 a month buys us all the clothes we need for one placement package. $50 a month buys us case of diapers. $10 buys us one outfit a month. And we can't serve all the children that are coming into care in the Panhandle without your support. The seven that we got today makes it 67 this year.

out of about 600. About 600 come into care in the Panhandle in a given month, I mean in a given year. And so we want to get to 100%. Every kid gets a placement package. In order to do that, we need money. You can't run a nonprofit without money. People don't want to talk about money, we need it. You can sponsor one of these episodes, it costs 50 bucks. But lots of different ways.

Matt Darrah (01:03:06.19)

that you can support the work that we do. We have a fundraiser coming up in October, October 11th. It's a sporting clay shoot out at River Breaks. It's an afternoon shoot with a dinner plus one. There's four people on a team. Teams are $1,000. And then if you need golf carts and stuff like that, we're working on a ton of fun stuff to silent auction items, live auction items.

We'll have a band and all kinds of stuff. So if you're interested in that, I'll put the link to that down in the show notes as well. Thank you again to Ashley over at Falcon Ridge IT for bailing me out with my broken laptop and all the things. And thank you for your sponsorship. Thanks, guys, and we'll catch you next week.