First and Last: Building a Family Through Adoption

Matthew Darrah (00:01)

Hello and welcome to All Things Foster, a place for coffee, connection, and community. We've got Rod and Anna Freeland ⁓ on the podcast with us. I'm super excited to ⁓ hear their story. But before we get to that, ⁓ this episode is sponsored by Belmar Bakery, Amarillo's family-owned full-service bakery since 1965. Conveniently located on Bell Street, they're open.

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I'm telling you, now you need to go over there and get a cookie, because I'm telling you, my mom absolutely loved their pumpkin pies. And so they moved to Indiana for about 10 years. And every Thanksgiving, my mom would call her and ask them, like, OK, will you all ship me some pies? And they're like, well, we really don't do that. She's like, come on, come on. So they would ship her some pumpkin pies, because they were so good.

but my mom just craved ⁓ their pumpkin pies. so anyways, they're great and Jennifer's just great folks. So welcome Anna and Rod. ⁓ So just give us a little bit, I know you're kind of new to the area, right? You guys moved here from California, right? A couple years ago. A couple years ago, okay.

So you guys have six kiddos, Yes. Six kids. And two of those are biological, right? Yes. And the other four are adopted. Correct. And where are they adopted from?

Three from China and one domestically. One domestically, okay. So what's the timeline on things? What do they flesh out? What are the kids' ages from and from? Youngest and oldest? Our biological kids are 25 and 22. And then adopted kids 16, almost 15 and two.

13 year olds, not twins, but six weeks apart. Almost like twins. But basically, for all intents and purposes, they're twins. They're just not biological twins. Wow. That's crazy. So what started this desire to adopt? Where did that come from?

It came from Anna. I think she was the one that mentioned it to me. There was a time in my life when she mentioned it and I was not open to it at the time.

Due to family circumstances,

Yeah, so where did your heart for adoption come from? Well, we started out like, you know, young married, and we're gonna have this many kids, or this is our dream and stuff, and we wanted more kids, but I ended up having just really hard pregnancies. And so after two, I was like, oh man. But then just as the years went by, I still had like the desire for more kids, just, you know, what's God leading us to do?

So we just looked at all the different ways to adopt, domestically or internationally or with the foster care system and just kind of, after we prayed about it and he was more on board, felt that that's how God was leading us to grow our family. Sweet. why China? I know, how long ago was that?

Because you said the oldest is 16. He was almost two. So you know. 14 years ago. Okay. He was our first adoption. He was 23 months at the time. ⁓ So this is, mean, you guys had some time. because this, what I'm thinking is there was a period where there was a whole bunch of ⁓ kiddos getting adopted from China. And it's probably around that time. Was there something about China?

What led to the decision to... ⁓ to purposely adopt from China? Yeah. So, I can't speak for Anna, but for me, I had been to China in high school. ⁓ wow. I'm older, so that was in 1988, six months before the Tiananmen Square incident. A lot of people that are younger, not familiar with that. I had always had an interest just in general of the Asian...

cultures. I mean they're all different per se but I'd always had an interest in that. ⁓ So when I was on board with adopting we actually went to ⁓ informational meeting for the foster system you through the county and stuff. I wanted to be open about all our options.

financially that was probably, that was very doable. And then we discussed, we found an agency and discussed the international adoption quite a bit more. But that was basically where we sat down and she literally put a map in front of us and said,

these are the countries this agency adopts from. Would you have a problem from adopting from this country or this country? We basically said yes, no, narrowed it down that way. And then she asked, what are your interests? I said, well, me personally, I have an interest in Asian culture. Now I understood that that was going to change once I brought that child home. But I'm supportive of that ethnic group. And I said, for me, it had been Asian.

⁓ Asian culture specifically China, but that's because I had been there. Yeah We also, know, have South Korea that you can adopt from so I like come I'm fine with China But then that brought

obviously brings up lot of questions from those around you, know, your family, they don't look like you, right? And why specifically, you know, so. Yeah. And for me, I was inspired a lot by Christian singer Stephen Kirstchapian. They adopted from China and I've been a huge fan of his since like in high school. And so that and then my closest friend still today, like...

I mean, they had adopted domestically, but you know, had a really close friend that had adopted and then ⁓ just kind of in our community and we homeschool and kind of the homeschool community, it kind of became almost a popular thing to adopt and to adopt from China. And lot of people also do, you know, adopting from the foster care system. So ⁓ that's kind of we it was just kind of around us, I think. Yeah, we saw it like in the communities we were in. Sweet. So ⁓

So if you if in and again you guys go into as much detail or as little as you want What was the process like? His name is Caleb, right?

So your oldest, when you adopted him, you said he was 23 months old. What was the whole adoption process like? I I'm real familiar with the foster care process of going and getting licensed and the home studies and this, that, and the other thing. What's the process like on an international adoption? Is it kind of the same or different?

It's vastly different. It's also going to depend on the laws of the country that the parent is adopting from. Now currently, China has, I believe a year two ago, has closed to adoptions. Russia was closed. I have two nieces from Russia that closed years ago. But my brother's experience from adopting from Russia was vastly different than ours from China. A lot of that difference has to come from the laws of that.

quote host country where the child is coming from. ⁓ It was eye opening though. mean, you know, we had biological children. You go to the hospital, you have them, bring them home. This is a pile of paperwork for eight months and I need you to sign here. I need to have this notarized. I need this signed. You got to redo this. I've got people come on over, social workers. We're doing backgrounds. You're going to the police department to be fingerprinted.

was a whole process to make sure, you know, you're not a criminal. I need this money, need this much by tomorrow. Wait a Just so you all know, and the listeners aren't gonna know this, but I served on the board of an international adoption agency ⁓ that was based here, was called Mental Miracles. And then they have since ⁓ closed up. But anyway, so I have like a smidge of understanding, it...

So, but a lot of trainings and stuff like that. Yes. So we had to read, classes, the adoption agency would have certain requirements they want to meet for their agency. then obviously we're in the US. So you have Department of State has certain requirements that have to be met. ⁓

for you to actually legally bring in a child from another country. So you have to meet those requirements and then the host country, specifically China, has certain requirements you have to make too and those have to come together. It's long process. I don't remember how long it took us to...

They all, some went a little bit faster from when we first walked in and said, -about a year and half- hey, we decided to Some of them went faster than others, but it also just depend on the timeline. I think that the whole from first signing that we wanted to adopt to actually bringing him home was about a year and a half. Wow, that's a long process. Now, and it was him, right? You guys had...

Started with him and yeah the whole process start to finish for specifically so from identifying I can't speak to all countries on on their process at least with China ⁓ you were specific to Like a boy would like a girl and then typically You have to be open to certain medical needs that were at least noticed. Yeah

for instance, so you would say I would accept a child with this condition, but maybe you're not open or willing to accept one of a different condition. So they try to narrow it down for you, but you are what they call matched. So you're matched with the child, you'll get a picture, a file on them, usually a couple of months or so before. And then so then that little process where that goes where you're accepting that child and China's gonna say, okay, I'm gonna match that file with that child with yours so that

that child will be yours. And then you go through the process of then you'll go there. China, ⁓ they have it set up. once there's no court system, they're going before a judge there or here. So the way China was operating was you'd go there, you'd get the child had some formalities there. Once you actually touch back on US soil, didn't matter which airport you went into.

Once that plane touches down, even if you had connecting flights, that child is legally a U.S. citizen. You still had to go through customs with all your paperwork, but our children became U.S. citizens in the different cities. One was in Seattle and I think two were in San Francisco. And then they're U.S. citizens, so there was no court proceedings here to affirm that. But that's different in...

So one of the things that I know was really challenging for, like I said, the international adoption agency that I was on the board for was paperwork, like getting actual birth dates and birth records and stuff like that, especially because they were doing them all over the world, but they did African and this and that and the other thing, and just actually getting the information was a huge

undertaking a lot of times. I wouldn't think China would have been the same way, but I mean, was there any of that?

Well, all the kids in China, it's illegal to place your child for adoption. So all the kids are abandoned. So yeah, we don't. So then they so China has to go through that process of trying to find the birth parents and then just declaring them abandoned. So as far as that goes, we didn't have any records except from the orphanage. And I was going to ask, he was in an orphanage. you're given a birthdate. Well, two of our kids

were actually they had started kind of a foster care program in China. So a couple of our kids were in foster care and one came straight from orphanage. Right, so I don't know if you all are familiar, you probably would. There's a book that I read, something about the stars. Gosh, what was the name of that book? You know what I'm talking about? The that, he's from England and he,

basically helped China start a foster care program. And I have the book at home, I should have looked at it, I didn't think about it. It sounds familiar, we read so many books, but he found somebody else that connection to

They were from Australia expats and then started taking in. Because she was an MD, so they started caring for medically fragile children ⁓ that the orphanages couldn't care for. That was the Hills. What was the name of their book?

Well, they didn't write the book. Somebody wrote about them and that. They didn't write the book. If the book name comes to me, I'll...

I can't remember how I ended up with a copy of it. I listened to something or something, it was a podcast or something that this guy was on talking about because like I said, he lived in China and helped run an orphanage for like a long time and then started having conversations and really was one of the people that was really instrumental in

in just getting a foster care system up and running. ⁓ I'm curious about that. To answer your question about the birth dates, what we know about them, whether it's accurate or inaccurate, would come from the orphanage. Since, like Anna said, it's illegal, and it's still illegal, you can't adopt either, but it was illegal to place your children for adoption in China. They basically had to...

the law that if you had the child they were yours. monetary system and their cultural beliefs, just, millions of kids are in orphanages. Now there are state-run orphanages because they knew they were there. ⁓ Parents didn't have anywhere to place them if they felt they couldn't raise the child. So a lot of what you would get from the orphanage is when the child would come in. Sometimes their birth date would be

I believe at the time, correct me if I'm wrong, but they had a systematic way as if the child was found in like March, they would give them a certain date or so just because that was a way of having something, right, some kind of a system. They also, I believe, did that with two of the names that they, like every boy that was brought in, like in the month of March, was given a certain name within a range because it was a systematic way of keeping...

Yeah, being able to, what am I trying to say? Identify. Identify the child, because there's so many. Others, we had a note that was left with the child. Like one of ours, it was a very, very detailed letter from the parents explaining the full name, the actual birth date, why they felt they could not raise that child. So we have a lot of information on one.

the -not a lot-, but more than the others. We know for what it is, but we believe the birthday that was written was accurate. believe that the birth name was accurate. what the child was referred to.

Now, I seem to recall, I could be wrong on this, but hasn't China ⁓ stopped the one child policy? They did. I believe it was probably six, seven years ago they actually stopped that. Up to that point they had the one child policy. ⁓ We're all familiar with the big, big cities, 12, 13.

14 million people in the city in China, but believe it not, a lot of China is rural. So you have a lot of small cities, a of small communities, and it's a lot of farming. And so the government would shy away from the small communities if a family member had, not always, but generally we would shy away from enforcement if they had one or more kids. But that was looked at as an economic reason because they could raise the child to help with the farming, but then it helps the community.

So a lot of times it was not enforced ⁓ outside of large cities, but as a culture, as a people, they tend to not have large families, even when it was legal prior. ⁓ due to that, but the detriment of that one policy has one child policy is brought to know there's a discrepancy between the males and Yeah, it's like a hundred million more.

Men and women or something like that. It was huge number. They tried to change that I

be going, but I thought when they did change the one child policy, they might've changed it to like, now you can have two. And I believe now they've, correct me if I'm wrong, they might've gotten rid of it with that. Now they're open to however many you want. Still gonna have some confines within that though. They still have cultural beliefs. So it hasn't, for the most part, helped, I think, because they were so far behind in getting more females that it's- Right.

They take a while before they get of marriage age. Generation. I ⁓ could be wrong, but I think that actually India now has more people than China because as direct result of that. do, if not they're very, very close. Those two are the most populated countries. Right. you guys... Huge need in both...

Well, in every country. We have a need here in US. Right, for sure. So you guys went... How long were you in country when you got your oldest? Because you have to go there and stay for a while, right? You're there for... We were there for no longer than two and just slightly over two weeks. Our agency... There's a week you have to be there.

There's a formality you have to go through in the capital. It may not be the city they're from or the region they're from, you'll meet in the capital of the province that the child is from. And there's some formalities you have to go through there and then you go through a US customs procedure there as well. They always had an option that you could take, ⁓ usually two or three or four day tour.

of areas within China prior to getting the child. And we did that on a couple of occasions. So that placed us within the country for like two, just over two weeks maybe. I should have two and a half weeks. It wasn't long. Not like we're there for a couple of months or Yeah, but you were there for a little while. Yeah, it was great. Wow. Man, that's so cool.

How is it different parenting? And I'm not talking about just adopted versus biological. I'm talking culturally different. Or have you noticed much of a challenge in that? mean, they were pretty young, or at least the oldest was. So I mean, is there cultural challenges ⁓ with these adoptions, or is it?

I don't really feel like there's, mean, yeah, you have to know that people are gonna look at you different, and maybe judge you or judge your kids or something like that, but.

As far as parenting, mean, we're of the mind, yeah, we're gonna treat all our, we don't treat them different. I think sometimes with our second group of kids, I mean, it's just different just because we've been parenting longer. It's not because we're treating them better or worse. It's just we've gotten older.

You hope for a better parent, 20 years later. Yeah, I mean, hopefully. My older daughters are like, if you had thought I'd done that, you know, and it's like, listen, I'm not the same parent that I was when I was 25. yeah, for sure. I think that there's... ahead. ⁓ I'm just trying to think culturally. mean, I don't know the thing that comes to my mind. They love noodles. Okay, y'all want noodles? Yeah, go for it. I mean, and they're just still...

kind of mid to young teenagers, but I feel like we haven't had any major issues as far as them kind of bucking against us as far as.

They're you know what I'm saying, like their culture versus well, you don't understand because you're white and and I'm Chinese or other ones Hispanic. mean. They haven't voiced that to us, but I think it's more kind of how people see you as a family and like being in public or or like, ⁓ I guess, for instance, with Covid and, know, blaming China for all that is kind of like, OK, you know, don't

I think I felt during that time a little bit more protective of my kids in that sense. Yeah, that makes sense. know, okay, no, don't judge them for that. Yeah, I think there's, you know, there's people, you you use the word prejudice, but there's positive and negative prejudices. One of the ones I would come across a lot, and people are well intentioned, but, oh, they must be smart, right? And that's a...

Being smart is a good thing, right? But that is a prejudice that you are placing on someone that may not be. Now, Irva's adopted, and I didn't place that on him. But after a while, we realized, that kid's smart The others, like me, we've got to speak to him a couple of times to quite understand what you know, But I don't think we place that...

on him that you're from China, so you're going to be smart. ⁓ you're a ⁓ child in the image of God. Exactly. And we all have our smarts and our non-smarts. Yeah. but, I was just trying to say, the other, one of the biggest difference, a lot of people is when they're well-intentioned, they don't know how to ask. And a lot of times you'll hear this, it's like,

Do you any children of your own? Like if a conversation comes up with an adopted child, they don't even know the race or ethnicity. They don't have to. question is, you any children of your own? These are mine. These are mine. They're all mine. I have, like I said earlier, we didn't have to go through a court proceeding here in the US. We just did voluntarily just to just affirm they were already US citizens. So they were.

as firm by the US Department of State and China it helped them out to get an American birth certificate. Right. And then we went through a formality through an illegal court proceeding in the US as well. So we've had multiple countries and multiple judges, and obviously this is ordained by God, but these are our children. So I think people are intentioned well, they just don't know how to ask. like, so do you have any other children? And what of your own? What they're asking, do you have any biological? Right.

And that's why I have learned over the years not to take that as they're condescending or their not quite sure how to approach the situation because it is and then when they find out, well, they don't even.

I mean, literally it was at one of my jobs just last month, someone.

Back in the...

You know, can I say it? Or the job they like, who's your wife Chinese? Because you have three Chinese kids. just met. It's just a person that a coworker. Yeah, it just doesn't know. They knew that I had three Chinese kids. They honestly didn't know that they were adopted. They honestly felt the thought that I had married a Chinese woman. So the experiences I think are different.

and then how you view that as different. I remember having our first for maybe a couple of years, I think we had adopted the second one already, and I'm behind a lady in the store, and she's of a different race, the child that's sitting in the basket. There's a lot of circumstances that could have been, but my first thought was not that this lady is a housekeeper, or she's not.

Babysitting one and why the child's mom is at work my very first thought was This is a beautiful family right and I almost said something to her, but she was choose you know like Beautiful daughter, but they were they were heading out so it wasn't able to say that but yeah It changes your perspective on when I see people different races with each other. I don't automatically think that they're just Watching over the child. I feel them. There's a family. Yeah, yeah

That's, yeah, mean, people say stuff, you just sometimes just wanna smack them upside the head, because it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, so, we won't get onto that. Did y'all go to the orphanage, or were they, was he, were they brought to you?

They were all brought to us, but we visited two of the orphanages. didn't go on one of them. didn't go on the, one of the child, we had the option. Cause one of the kids wasn't doing well. Tour, tour, tour. Later that evening when we were done all day and knew one of them, that child was not doing very well. So I stayed back in the hotel with that child and she actually went with one of the other families that was there.

And they went to tour to see the orphanage another child. Yeah, we did get to go we all went mm-hmm. What was that like? It was It was surreal cuz well cuz a couple of our kids were in foster care So they didn't really spend a lot of time there, so It wasn't that my goodness my child's been

time there, so it wasn't really that for us because they hadn't really spent time there. But it was still just heartbreaking. They didn't let us see a whole -Probably the white wash parts- lot. The parts that we saw were clean. ⁓ We still saw stuff that we were like, that's not good. It's just institutionalized care, which is not... ⁓

good for any kid. So I guess I just remember it being heartbreaking and just thankful that. ⁓

And yeah, I don't like having the attitude or placing it on our kids that we're rescuing them in a sense because that's not really fair. mean, in one sense we are like, in a sense we're rescued by God, but... And yeah, we felt a certain call and we wanted to add to our family and it became almost like a mission to us. And then this is a way that God has called us to serve Him in our family. But we never wanted to have that attitude or place that attitude on...

our kids. I mean, yes, we are rescuing them in a sense, but...

Just, yeah, so it's heartbreaking, just, guess, too, just being grateful that we were given the chance to, you know, welcome a child into our family and love them and take care of them. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Karen Purvis. Is that a name you guys have heard of? yeah. Lots of her trainings and books. Yeah. So did you read The Connected Child? Oh yeah. Yes. So when she talks about ⁓ going into the orphanage,

where those babies are and just being deathly quiet. It's just, you know, I mean. It's just heartbreaking. Yeah, yeah. Because I learned that when I cry, nobody comes. And so they just stop crying. Oh wow. Yeah.

So you have, ⁓ so you adopted your oldest from China and then the next one from China also, right? No, our second one was domestic. Second one was domestic. Okay. What was that process like versus this, versus the international part? Well, that's a whole story in itself. So our agency, ⁓ they also did domestic adoptions and so this child...

You know, were looking, lots of families waiting for baby.

But a lot of people.

this child had some special needs and some people were just not open to those needs. And so they started asking the international families because you're pretty much, you're gonna adopt internationally, you're pretty much signing up for some kind of medical need or special needs. That's just the nature of it. So our agency...

asked couple other families and asked us too and and we had actually already started the process for another Adoption in China. So we wanted we had a biological boy and girl we were gonna adopt a boy and girls from China So we had already begun that process to adopt a little girl from China, but we were not yet matched like he explained earlier We're not yet matched with our daughter. Yeah when the agency approached us about um our son um, And yeah, it's a whole other story but at first like he was

not for it, he's like no because we're doing China and this is you know we don't want to mess that up and but I think the agency is like you we don't typically place more than for bonding purposes we won't place and we'd only had our first son for like eleven eleven months just shy of a year but they typically would not place more than one child unless you were getting twins up front or multiples up front ⁓

another child within a year just for bonding purposes. It was 11 months, so shy of a month, shy one month, but they said, we'll make an exception if you adopt this child. But I was so concerned because...

where's my little girl? I'm like, well, you can still go for her. You just put that application on the back burner, do it. So I'm like, now we're adopted. We're going for another one? wasn't in the, I mean, God's got to. Wow. Yes, that one was a surprise. Yeah. It was a surprise. And I was a boy, said, and how old was he when you guys? He was nine weeks old. Oh, wow. So just new now. Yeah.

So you'd already done all the stuff, so there wasn't, I mean, was there a big difference as far as on the adoption side, as far as with the agency and stuff, was their process pretty much the same as far as?

paperwork training stuff like that or was it totally different or well just because it was such a short span of time like we were already cleared as far as the paperwork and the training and all the police and background stuff so we didn't there wasn't it just happened so quick it was with the same agency so

With him, yeah, it wasn't really a process or waiting because they needed a placement and we were all ready to go. And we didn't have the international paperwork. Yeah. with him, everything was done, like she said, the background and there was no international paperwork to fill out. So she like, would you like to adopt him? Like literally it was like yes or no. How quickly did he come?

I mean, from the time they asked, was this like days or weeks or a couple of weeks because there was a little bit of a glitch that because we weren't foster certified because we were doing international adoption. So there's each state is probably a little different, but there's a certification for foster care that we did not have. And so they couldn't place him with us right away. So there was like a couple of weeks.

Yeah, I don't remember. a couple weeks, like kind of waiting period. It wasn't very long. We didn't have much notice. was very, very quick. Couple weeks. Not prepared. It's like you're really not prepared. Yeah, because you're thinking you're in the process, but you haven't been matched. So you're thinking this is probably six months or another year before we get our daughter. Yeah. Right. So I'm still in this process of...

I'm listening to what God is asking but I'm still trying to direct it So we had two biological children like Anna said we had a boy and a girl blonde hair blue eyes And now I want a boy and a girl from China black hair, brown eyes, right and that's where we're be We're gonna be a family of two parents and we're have two girls One's white one's Chinese and two boys ones and so I was open to the call well After a while I was open to the call adoption

And then we're get our second Chinese girl and we're gonna be this family that I picked out. and symmetrical. Right? Yeah. know, I'm still trying to direct where God is calling. yeah. That's a sin on my part because that is, I mean, it blew up to like, it's like you cannot, this is not something that you can direct. And then throwing the wrench, hey, you want to adopt somebody else? Well, that's not.

And then so I was just kind of worried what that was going to do for the little girl that we didn't have. They're well, just put on the backburn. I'm like, but then you're just saying, so adopt another one. They're like, well, yeah, why not? Well, we're the ones raising them. Right. So it was, but it went fairly quick with that adoption. And yeah. And then at a certain point, like, OK, let's just try to match you for the.

Chinese adoption. I'm like, hold on. So we got so we adopted three kids within two years. Wow. So I know that's like for foster care. Yes. Sibling group. Yeah. You can get two, three, four, five at once. But that was still that's quite a bit like three new kids within two years. Wow. She's constantly fill out paperwork. Yeah, no doubt.

which thankfully she did all of it. I'd come home from work, she'd just sign here. Just sign here, have the little post-it note thing. Still questioning some of that stuff, she had me sign it. There might be a life insurance policy out there somewhere. saw something that was no likelihood it was for Chinese. Yeah, well, you know, to go back to your point where you feel like God's calling you, but you're kind of directing it yourself, right? So, when we got the boys the first time,

Like I said, was just a sudden thing. Saturday morning I was doing my Bible. My oldest girls are technically my stepdaughters. All intents and purposes they are my daughters. I've never called them step. They were six and seven when Nikki and I met. Nikki and I had planned to

get to a certain point and then we were gonna have a biological child or two together. so we were, September 1st that year, we were gonna start this new insurance plan and right away we were gonna start trying to have a baby. And we got them August 26th. And so...

I was like, I have a plan. I have a plan and this is not my plan, you know, but foster care and adoption had always been something Nikki and I had talked about. I mean, I came from foster care and so we were always going to do that. So when I sit down with my Bible that Saturday morning after we got them and James was just the next book on my list and I said, God, if you're calling me to do this, you have got to make it abundantly clear. And so I get down to, you know, verse 27, it's to care for widows and orphans

since it's true religion. so then I'm like, but I have a plan. I have this plan. And so I kept reading and I get into chapter four where he says, do not say that I will go here and do this, say if the Lord wills. And so that was a dramatic shift in my mental state at that point was, it's not that it's bad to plan. It's not that it's...

that it's bad to have goals and set goals and say, I want to budget this and I want to save for retirement and this, that, and the other thing. But to say, like, this is what I think and I'm going to plan towards this direction, but in my heart I'm going to say, if the Lord wills, that's what's going to happen. But if He changes it, then I'm not going to have a crisis.

And because that's where I was at. I I was like, no, no, no. I had this plan. And so, I don't know, when you said you had the call, but you were trying to make it work the way you wanted it to work. mean, I'm just there with ya, We're going to adopt the boy and then the girl. They're saying adopt this child. was like, I don't know about that. Yeah.

And then you get the girl and then it's like, now what? By that time I got the bug. I gotta keep going. Yeah, I was done. When you open up to what God's calling and ⁓ then you just go with it. So it was a little bit, um almost two years later when we got adopted, our last one. Because I was done.

We had five and the three, you know, adopted so close together and the youngest two only six weeks apart. I was kind of... And so... So then we waited and then just he wanted to adopt more and then that time I had to be in my Bible and have a God say nope. So the two that were the two that are six, nine weeks apart? Six weeks. Six weeks apart. How far apart did y'all get?

we got one domestically at nine weeks old and then she came because we had already started the paperwork for China so she came. 9 months

or maybe a year, so anyway, three within like the two year period. So she's the one that is close to him. Yeah. So I mean, it's mind boggling to think that we adopted a nine week old. And then she came when she was 16 months old. And when we adopted her.

She was 16 months and the other one was 14 and a half months. So the one you adopted nine weeks and then you adopted 16 months, those are the two that are only six weeks apart. crazy. At this point I was like totally open to adoption. Up till that point was like I'm gonna, when I was on board I'm gonna listen to God, but I'm gonna direct it this way. I'm listen to a certain point and then I'm gonna...

Because know, our plans are always better, right? And then by the time we were on the last adoption, I was like, I'm totally open to this. We're just going to go for it. The only thing I'm going to plan is that we're going to have another child in the family. By that time, I'd freely open to God. You just bring us the child. That's so cool. Wow. And so how long has it been since the last adoption?

Ten years, ten and a half almost. Wow. Okay. And so how are things? it, you raised some bio kids and you've got these kiddos. Is there, mean...

Is it the same? Is it different? Is there huge differences? Is there little differences? What is the difference like for you guys on a day-to-day basis? Well, we have four teenagers right now. So some days I'm like, wanna smack him. Like, what in the world are we thinking? We thought this was a good idea. I'm just doing what God asks right. But, yeah, I think...

parenting is a little different because we had some we have some space so yeah the jury's still out for me on whether raising teenagers and toddlers was harder or raise or having teenagers and adult kids is harder I'm not yeah I'm still in the middle of yeah yeah I'm trying to think what you asked or where I was trying to go but ⁓ I mean yeah we've just I hopefully we've learned

and improved in our parenting, but. ⁓

So yeah, I don't feel like I'm parenting. mean, sometimes our older kids might see it differently, but at least we and I, don't feel like we're treating our kids who came to us through adoption differently than our other kids. It's just.

We're just in a different place in life. Some things I'm more concerned about, some things I'm more laid back about. And every kid's different too, and not necessarily just because they were adopted. The adopted kids have had different circumstances as far as their special needs and surgeries or learning things. And we've homeschooled all our kids, so that can look very different with each child.

But yeah, I haven't

seen my kids differently. mean, sometimes now that I think of it like they're teenagers, it's like, you know, or as they're getting older, it's like, yeah, I don't know what this is maybe gonna be like for you, because I I'm not your biological mom and I don't have any history. don't know any of that. So as far as things as they get older, adults maybe get married and have kids or other medical

issues that come up, know, we don't know their family history. Yeah, I was at a doctor's appointment a couple of weeks ago and it's like, well, do you have anybody in your family that has this? like, I don't know, because I'm adopted. Yeah, yeah. So that's that was constantly because we had so many close together constantly on any, you know, medical appointment is just so much so that hits you sometimes just so much as like, don't know, or unknown or ⁓ we have no history, you know, so that, know, yeah.

I think the difference in raising is just in addressing the questions and being open with them about their circumstances. We've never hid ⁓ one of them we waited until the appropriate age to give their full story. ⁓

to make sure they're at an age where it's understandable. But it was, know, when Chinese New Year comes around, we try to have Chinese food. Kids love that. and you see parts of that. As far as the upbringing, we homeschooled all of our kids. And so it's like, let's see which math works for you. What language program works for you? What history? You know, I think

with our biological kids, because we had already started adopting, so when they got a certain age, I think they did a short little study on maybe the Chinese culture, but that wasn't as in-depth as maybe the adopted kids, right, because they're from there. So that might change it. That's just a matter of schooling, but that can change in the upbringing of the child, because we want them to understand where they came from.

I know why they like noodles. It tastes good.

I think just being open with them. They bring experiences too that your other children don't have and you get to experience that with them, whether it's good or bad. ⁓ So I ask a lot of ⁓ my families this, that come on, because there's this stigma that you can't love

this kiddo that didn't biologically come from you the same as your biological child. And so, how do you answer that? I mean, you have to be asked that, surely you've been asked that. Right? Dude, you want to answer or do want me to? Like I said earlier, when I saw that lady and the child and I felt they were family, I don't know.

They could have been a family, maybe they weren't, but after a while, that's the way you feel. don't, when I approach my kids, outwardly, you see someone that doesn't look like me, but it's just like anytime we've met someone that was from a foreign country, think immediately we start running very, very rapidly through our mind, what, what, the, you know, the food's different, their culture's different, what, what's so different? And we put this like,

there's already these questions we have about that person like maybe we just met them because they're visiting a friend or from a different country and you're like, that's, they're so vastly different than us and those things run through our mind. Well, every single time I'm in front of my kids, I don't see that that that was probably initially there. But then when by the wayside, I see a child that's my kid, it's either obeying or disobeying or just we're just having a conversation. I don't

I can look at them and say, they're Chinese or they're Hispanic, but I don't. There's no difference in how I'm responding to them. They're a child. They're no different than I am. God created us all. For me, I think I'm thankful for the training we had and like the bonding and maybe it's I think it is different for women a little bit because God created us to be right. And I had carried two children.

So think I was maybe more aware of the bonding or the need for bonding. And I would say in one sense, some of it came right away automatically, and in other ways it did take a while. Just because, not because...

I didn't love them any less or wanted to love them any less or treat them any differently, but it was still just a process. Because I know that not everybody that adopts is able to have a biological child, but I did have that experience and so that came with me. So I feel like, yeah, I did have to be... I don't feel it anymore now because we've had all these years together. But for some more than others, it was definitely...

Definitely in process. Sure, sure. yeah, I just there's this there is this thought out there that, you know, that you just and I had this had this mom on a few weeks ago and she was like, it's not my love for each child is different. But she has bio kids and she has adopted kids and it's the love is different, but the amount isn't different. It's how

this child and I interact is different from how this child and I interacted. The amount is not in question. They're just a different person and they like to do this and that and I like to do this and that or whatever. But they're all your kids and you don't...

You don't love these more than those or whatever. I think that there's a lot of people out there that think, and as a matter of fact, that lady that I had on, ⁓ she had had one kiddo and then she had a really hard time getting pregnant again and she had it fixed in her mind that she couldn't.

love a child that wasn't from her womb the same as and as much as a child from her womb. So she was really kind of ⁓ she kind of pushed back on it for for quite some time and then and then God said no you you need to adopt and so she did and then she was like okay it's you know it that's not a real thing like I can love this child as much as this child this child I

I had it in my tummy and this one I didn't, but they're still both my kids. There's not a difference in love there. The relationships are different with each kid. Your relationship with your bio kids is different. And so the same is true for your kiddos that you've adopted. They're still your kids. You still love them. I've had some coworkers politely ask that.

kinda where you from this maybe a circumstance but said but you're not not related your husband some states maybe but but you know for but i said you you love your spouse they were not uh biologically now understand your spouse husband or wife is different relationship than your children but the point was you came into relationship with someone not like you yeah different likes

different dislikes and you love them immensely. These children that you bring into adoption, different circumstances, but you're love them immensely. It's never, you walk through the paths that they walk through. Our three kids just love Chinese food. You just love it too, you nurture that.

or Hispanic child does not like Hispanic food, Mexican food, I'm like, what on earth? Come on, come on, gotta like it, because I want to have that for dinner. That's interesting. So how, we've talked, we've kind of weaved through the conversation, but how has your faith guided you through this journey? What has that looked like? I mean, you talked about how him kind of pushing and changing your plan, but...

But other than that, what has your faith been like through this journey?

So you have to have faith. have to have faith. I to that first. I don't know how you do it without God. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's not... I'm not going to be standing here. I'm not going sit here and say it was easy. There's a lot of challenges from both sides. There's a lot of times...

They've got a medical need or something. Back of your mind, it's so easy to just bring that temptation in. Well, if I hadn't adopted them, I wouldn't be in this circumstance, right? It's like, oh, that's not the path you should be taking. God called you to adopt them. So God has called you to be in this circumstance. It's like God has called you to be in certain circumstances with your biological children as well. Yeah. See, it was definitely...

us because of our faith and very strong calling that we wanted more kids, but this was something that God, that it would be a sacrifice that God wanted us to do it. What was the ⁓ support around you in your community? Did you have some things that were really impactful and helpful or were there things that you wished you would have had that you didn't?

What was your support mechanisms like through these adoptions?

I felt like we had quite a bit of support. I think I mentioned earlier there was just like the homeschool community we were in. There a lot of people adopting kids, especially from China during that time, or people that had adopted or just close friends that had adopted domestically. So I feel like it's kind of surrounded by it in that sense. And so I would say overall, like our church family at that time that

that we were pretty supported and loved on as far as like them, know, practical things like them bringing us meals when we came home from China. And like one time we were all really, really sick and people just kept bringing us meals or just, yeah, the one, the younger one that was a surprise, you know, they just basically threw us like this huge baby shark. Cause we, you know, we didn't have any time to prepare. And so I feel.

And I feel like during those years, our church family really, yeah. And then we've had kids that have had a lot of surgeries, major surgeries. And so I feel like we were pretty well, we had good family support. And our church family definitely loved on and supported. Yeah, without that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, how it would have been even harder because it was still hard and you still even when you have support, I think sometimes you can just feel kind of alone or when you're having those hard days or weeks or months or years you. I think at least for me, sometimes you could feel guilty. It's like, well, I signed up for this and so I just have to deal with it by myself. Yeah. But overall, I.

feel like we had a good amount of support over the years. And again, without that, don't know. You would definitely feel like you were drowning. That's good. mean, that's good. It's good that you had that support. You mentioned bringing meals.

You know, a lot, so many times, you know, at church, mom gets pregnant, there's a baby shower, there's this, there's that. Mom goes to the hospital, has the baby, comes home. You know, the church does meals for several days or a week or two or whatever. And so many times, know, foster mom shows up to church on Sunday with a new kiddo and it's like, hey, you're doing a good thing. You know, and it's like, hey, they could use the same kind of support mechanism. just because it's an eight-year-old doesn't mean that you're not drowning with that.

Yeah, kid and yeah, whatever issues in there just met. Oh, yeah, it doesn't It's it should be treated the same Yeah in that sense that new parents with any new child no matter their age or whatever needs means that That support. Yeah for sure. That's why the placement package is so important. Exactly. Yeah So if someone was gonna if someone was gonna adopt

I'm sure you had this conversation. What does that conversation look like? What do you tell people when they're like, umm, I think I'm gonna adopt. I don't even think I had a chance to tell you about it, but recently I was with my good friend in a store that also has adopted kids and this sweet gal, she was just asking, I think just kind of innocent.

you know, questions, not, you know, curious, not, can tell when people are kind of rude or they're just honestly trying to figure out how to word things. But I think she just kept saying a couple of times like, well, you all are just heroes. Yeah, right. Oh, and it's like, no, no, no, no, we're not, you know, it's again, it's like, I didn't yes. like I said earlier, once since we did rescue them from whatever. But in that sense, I did not. I was only

for us walking in obedience to God and because we honestly wanted to parent more children. It's like, no, I am not. It's by God's grace that I'm surviving each day. I am not. And yeah, you never want to put that on your kids or any kid. They have to look at us as some kind of... Savior. It's like, Jesus is the only Savior.

Sometimes you still have to kind of deflect that from people. I'm not... I mean, do I think more people should adopt? Yeah, probably. Because I think in general as a culture, we're pretty selfish in that sense. Like just wanting all the toys or the things or earthly things when we could sacrifice through, you know, doing foster care or even just helping a family or even something short term. You know, not everybody's called to adopt. And I get that. For sure. Should more people?

Be involved, absolutely. But I'm not a hero. I'm just a regular person who was walking in obedience to God and just wanting to add through our family and through adoption. But it's not because I have it all figured out. Because it was easy, because it is, and I will tell people, it is hard. You absolutely need to be on the same page as your spouse.

You need to have support around you and really, really think and pray about it because it's hard. I've had people ask me and it's like, like Anna said, it's extremely difficult. And I'm not a hero. I mean, there's four times in my life I listen to Out of all the other times when he told me to do something, I didn't do it, right? Could have been last night. And it's like, but I opened up and there's a blessing in that.

I try to be practical too. It's like I've had people like she said, you you've got to be on the same board and I've had people, the husband was told my wife doesn't want to adopt. I'm like, then don't get into it yet. You need to sit down. You need to talk, pray about it. If you go to church, talk to a pastor, get some counseling. You cannot walk into this by yourself. If the other partner is not in on it, this is not something you need to be going down the path of it.

And a lot of questions I've had is like, well, I don't know how they're to turn out. I understand with ultrasounds and medical tests and blood tests, when mom's pregnant, we can find out certain diseases or certain circumstances their child's going to be born into. But the vast majority of pregnancies, we have no idea how the child's going to turn out. When you adopt a child that's already there,

Yeah, there might be some other things you can't see or understand yet, but for the most part, you already understand what they were born with. You actually have a little bit more information when you adopt than when you just get pregnant. I'm not saying not to have biological children, but what I would say is don't get wrapped up in the fact that you don't know, understand everything about that adopted child. don't understand anything about the biological.

Yeah. Just do it. Just do it. Just do Just do it. Man, if everybody did. So I was sharing this morning with my networking group the numbers and, you know, I mean, over a thousand kids come into care in region one, which is the whole. So it's the 26 counties of Panhandle, plus all the counties down around Lubbock You know, and man, there is I mean, 22, I think 22 percent of the kids.

in foster care stay in the county that they're from. So they're not, I mean it could be Randall County to Potter County, but it could be Amarillo to Houston or Dallas or San Antonio or Lubbock or whatever. And so the need is tremendous. Locally, internationally, there's a huge, huge need. And more people need to do it as well.

But the need to support families that are doing it is equally important. so, you know, a lot of people that I talk to feel like people don't care ⁓ when what I have found is that it's not that people don't care, it's that they don't know what to do. And so they just don't do anything. when I, I mean, we've got a whole list of volunteers ⁓ that said, yeah.

I want to help with that. I think that what you're doing is important and it benefits families. And so I want to get involved. And we've had a number of people who have heard me speak or seen this or seen that and gone and gotten licensed because of that and stuff like that. But on the whole, ⁓ I think people do care. They just don't know what to do. And so when they find out...

what's there that they could do. Maybe it's serving with POCN, maybe it's working with Amarillo Angels or Fostering Independence or whatever, but there are so many ways to do things. so, you know.

We need that support and it does feel lonely when you're walking this path and people don't, they don't support you, they don't know what to do. ⁓ So yeah. ⁓ So any other closing thoughts? You got anything you wanna say?

I think you said a second ago, just do it, but yeah.

Yeah, just but just know I think education is important and know that it's going to be hard and again Should more people do it? Absolutely should everybody do it not necessarily, I think you do need to be careful and and then it's okay to to I think in a sense use wisdom and and be protective of the kids that you already have in your home like I mean, I know everybody's different and yeah, I want to come across as like

judging anybody, but for us, we weren't, at that time, we weren't gonna like adopt teenagers when we had young kids or bring in foster care teenagers or something like that. And people do, and again, I'm not like judging, but I think you just really need to be, you like I said, you know, use wisdom and prayer and that it's okay to say, you know, yes or no to certain things. And again, not that we're just picking and choosing because yeah, even with a biological child, you don't know if they're gonna get diagnosed with

Leukemia when they're 10 years old, you know, we don't we don't know the future but I think it's okay to to you know, be careful and to use wisdom and and make sure yeah, make sure you definitely have a support system cuz you'll need it for sure but should more people help absolutely because there are those people who are in the trenches and yeah and if ⁓ Foster family is fostering or adopting, you know an eight-year-old or a 14 year old they absolutely need a lasagna dinner just as much as a

a mom that's just given birth and are like, hey, how, you know, can I hang out with your kids so you can just like, go sit at a coffee shop and get a cup of coffee or just I think, like you said, people don't know because I think they don't understand that in a lot of ways, it's the same and we don't treat our kids differently, but it is. In other ways, it is different. And you have taken on kind of this extra, this extra thing and you still need.

I mean, still, I mean, yeah, even today, like, you know, we still need, like, we still need support. You know, have, you know, have those people that we can call or talk to that get it or that understand. Yeah. I would say if you consider adoption for one, sit down with your spouse, definitely have to be on the same page.

Talk to other people that have adopted, whether that child was domestic or international. Yes, they come with different experiences, but the adoption was, brought a child into the home. So kind of get their um perspective. think the majority of parents are gonna tell you there's good and bad days, right? Same as your biological children. ⁓ You're just walking down a different path.

It's not so much now as they're older, but it seemed like when they were younger, it's like almost every day you'd meet somebody new or somebody would make, I don't think we really experienced a lot of negative comments, but you'll get the stairs, the store, people look at you, it's gonna come with the territory, that's gonna be, and that's what I'm trying to say, is that something you need to understand too? It doesn't matter the, ⁓

race of the adoptive family, especially if you bring a different race in, you're gonna get the looks or the questions from both family members and then others probably the rest of your life. When people see our three Chinese kids together, I'm not quite sure, but more than likely, when someone just sees them, they're thinking, those are just, that's a Chinese family. Can't wait to meet their parents. then we walk in.

So, you know, it's just something you're going to deal with, but it's a good conversation starter, but just be open. I think we need to be open to God who's calling us to have biological children. That to me was scary. That was really scary. It's like I didn't know what I was doing. I think overall, think in people, you know, like said earlier, they call you heroes.

I think I'm more blessed than they are, more honestly. I listened to what God asked me to do and that was the blessing. The blessing was you're to walk through some hard times. That is such a blessing. The four kids left yesterday to go on an missions trip. we have, just yesterday, last night, no, they were out last night. We have been away from them for a couple of days on

Just a few occasions. When we went to China, we left them. Yeah, but we didn't have all of them. We left them a couple years ago. a few trips, like a week long. Anniversary and stuff. we've never had all four of them go together. without us. Very weird. Very weird. I mean, I went to work last night. I'm like, this is wrong. something's off. So why is it quiet? know, when it's quiet in the house, you start running around like, OK, what happened?

But it's like I over night, I came home this morning and it was just this weird feeling as I'm driving in the driveway because I know I was going to walk in the house and they weren't going to be there. Yeah.

God's asked me to do. Yeah. Ask them to do this week, support it. I'm waiting for them to get back. Right. Yeah. I mean, you love your kids. Yes. Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and just sharing your heart behind adoption and some stories and things. Hopefully, maybe somebody listening has

Been thinking about it or is interested in some way or something like that. And so, you know, we do better in community I say that a lot on this podcast and part of the yeah part of the reason for you know, we live a busy life and ⁓ and so, you know through the through the podcast our hope is to help facilitate feeling more part of that community and ⁓ So I really really really appreciate

you guys taking the time and coming. ⁓ And so some of you guys, ⁓ well you guys won't know, but ⁓ Anna's group, it's ⁓ American Heritage Girls. American Heritage Girls, yes. So American Heritage Girls did this thing that I, these kids just love it, but their girls sit down and wrote ⁓ letters and drew pictures and stuff.

that we put in our placement packages and those kiddos, love it. I mean, they really do. so, just in case if you don't know, we do placement packages. When kiddos come to a family, they typically will come with the clothes on their back. Sometimes not even that. I did a placement package one time. This little girl came to the foster family with the diaper she had on and one sock. And that was all she had. And so, know, we're...

We're taking ⁓ them clothes and diapers and things. And placement packages across the 26 counties, we deliver them. And so ⁓ we've done, I think, 81 so far this year, which last year we did 80. So we're probably going to double what we did last year, which is amazing. We can't do that. We can't get to where every kid will get a placement package without supporters. And so we need placement package partners. ⁓

Those are folks that just give monthly to the organization. $100, buys us all the clothes for one placement package. $50 buys us a case of diapers. $10 a month buys us one outfit a month. And so if you're interested, you can go to our website, panhandleorphin.org slash donate and get set up. We also have Trade Wars that's coming up in October. It's our big annual fundraiser.

You can go to our website and go to trade wars and check that out We'd love to have teams and sponsors and all the things that it takes to run a to run a Nonprofit and to have a fundraiser. We'll have a link to that down in the show notes as well Thanks again to Jennifer over at Belmar bakery for her sponsorship and and we'll catch you guys next week Thanks again you guys for coming on Thanks